MoparFins

General BS and Laughs => General Mopar Discussions => Topic started by: Steve on January 24, 2008, 11:35:57 AM

Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Steve on January 24, 2008, 11:35:57 AM
Well. . . We did it.  We finally made it to see the ol' gal.
 
Bob and I went to Ultra One today and got to touch an intimately look at Miss. Belvedere.  It was a thrill to see the car, but a shame to see it so shabby.  (No Jokes)  We touched with reverence.  We suggested Moore's as a source of parts for the car.  Moore's will dig out what the have immediately and send us pics for Ultra One to use as reference and for sourcing parts.
 
The deal is we cannot post the pictures on the Internet. . . Yet.  We are working a deal with Ultra One to be able to feature Miss Belvedere on Moparfins.com and maybe let it spill over to the Forum.  I do have pictures I gleaned from the Internet a while ago I will post on the main sight.
 
Dwight of Ultra One (Super Nice Guy) gave us cart blanche' to look at the car.    We got to talk about 82 seconds of rare footage on 16MM Film.  It was produced by the local Tulsa TV station 50 years ago during the burial ceremony.  It has not been seen since then.  I was tasked to find someone who has the ability to convert it to DVD.
 
At this time, it is undecided what direction the car will  be going in with restoration.  Dwight feels he will get it running, but maybe not drivable.  He taught us a few things about the way the car was optioned.
 
Between Bob and I, we took about a dozen pictures.  one of us standing next to the car and another one of us looking underneath.  When we get the go ahead, we will let you see them.
 
Sorry about the pictures, I must keep my promise.  So don't ask please.  When the time is right, we will unveil them.  When the car goes on tour, Moparfins will be mentioned in the literature when the car goes on tour as well.  It will be a while.  Quite a while.
 
If you want to know more about what we saw, ask away.  Bob and I will tell you as much as we can.
 
Guys/Gals
This is a members only thing right now.  Respect that Please
 
POLARACO2008-01-24 20:23:36
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Steve on January 24, 2008, 02:20:06 PM
I posted some of the pictures of Miss Belvedere on the site tonight.  I got motovated (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
POLARACO2008-01-24 19:20:24
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Mike on January 24, 2008, 04:34:43 PM
Thats sad to look at that car , its in terrible condition. The bright side is it will be restored.



Steve are those the picture approved by Ultra one?



Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Leaburn Patey on January 24, 2008, 04:48:49 PM
P,those pics are the ones from the internet when the car was on public display after the reveal this past summer.....
Steve,this is big news and I feel proud to be associated with Moparfins .
Despite her condition,she is still a world famous car and a piece of Tulsa's and American history respectfully. She has a spirit that wishes to live on forever.
I wish I was there today..
Just looking at the pics from the internet she exudes character that had me captivated since the first day I turned on my pooter..
If Dwight needs any help I would do my best when called upon.
CBarge2008-01-24 21:59:00
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Steve on January 24, 2008, 05:02:03 PM
[/QUOTE]
 
What Leaburn said.  The pictures I was talking about are the ones we took today.  At this time, there are no public pictures of Miss Belvedere since she left Tulsa.  There won't be for some time.
 
I can say this.  The few spots we saw the Ultra One De-rusting agent put on Miss Belvedere, we were amazed at how well it worked.  Needless to say, I came home with 15 gallons of the stuff. . . (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Stitcherbob on January 24, 2008, 05:43:55 PM
All I can say is that after meeting Dwight and seeing what he has accomplished so far, Miss Belvedere is good hands.... (http://www.cbodydrydock.com/e107_images/emoticons/thumbsup.gif)

Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Steve on January 24, 2008, 05:56:10 PM
I forgot to mention a point that Bob brought up. It wasn't the TV crew who did alot of damage, it was that moron Boyde Coddington. Many of you have seen comment on what a great guy he is before. (http://forum_images/blank.gif) NOT! He went down there totally unprepared. He was the one who should have told then to flood the car with clean water immediately. No. If he had done that, he may not have had to do the damage he did. As I said today, clean water used to wash it down, and even some soap, would have been better than letting that clay dry on the car. Who knows. . . Maybe the doors would have opened. We'll never know now POLARACO2008-01-24 22:57:19
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Arlen Vander Hoff on January 25, 2008, 07:47:09 AM
Very cool guys very cool!!!!!!!
This is indeed a proud day for all of us here at Moparfins.com
The site of the old girl would probably make me sad too!!
You guys are both lucky and should be honored to have been there!!

Yup Boyd C. is a jerk!!
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Mike on January 25, 2008, 10:21:54 AM
Boyd is a bum who lives off the reptation of the Boydster which is what
all his other cars are based off of , real original. The work that our
members do is much much much better then the work of that glorified bum
who takes the credit of the work done by his crew becuase he funds the
operation. IMHO he couldnt shine the shoes of our members!



The car is bef in better hands with the crew at Year One and Dwight,
and here in good ol Joisey. This is major for us as a group and family
much kudos to Steve and Bob(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif)



Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Leaburn Patey on January 25, 2008, 12:59:54 PM
I am glad that Miss Belvedere is in the hands of the "Joisey Mob" LOL
With our  "network",Dwight and Ultra One can achieve the goal of Miss Belevedere's new owners.
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Robert F. Brogle on January 25, 2008, 04:01:23 PM
Steve, I have a place locally that converts and restores old film to quality gold DVD's.  See their website sodavinci.com I'd be willing to do the leg work to get it there and back.
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Steve on January 25, 2008, 04:07:05 PM
Good Info Rob  Thanks! (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif)

You get a cookie.
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: steve fogel on January 25, 2008, 04:14:29 PM
are they going to attempt a restoration, or a "inhibited degeneration"?
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: steve fogel on January 25, 2008, 04:15:33 PM
Polar, did this outfit actually purchase the car, or are they simply doing the work for the owner?
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Stitcherbob on January 25, 2008, 04:40:42 PM
Someone from Finland posted a pic on C body of what we saw.....glad it wasn't us! A promise is a promise!
But you can see what they are after.....the pass front fender looks great all cleaned up, compared to the rest of the car. I wouldn't mind seing this car if it could all look that good....takes some of the sad out of it (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif)


Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: steve fogel on January 25, 2008, 09:36:49 PM
Oh ye of little faith !   I'm heartened by the front fender........yes, poor planning caused this setback, but anything's possible, if you stick with it and put your mind to it........
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Arlen Vander Hoff on January 26, 2008, 06:01:51 PM
I think they did what they could and what they thought would work back in 1957. Plus as we all know these cars started to rust in the showrooms. I'm suprised its as good as it is.
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Steve on January 26, 2008, 06:17:23 PM
Quote from: hurst1
Polar, did this outfit actually purchase the car, or are they simply doing the work for the owner?
 
No, they are charged with making a decision and trying to get the car to some point of representation. 
 
In the documentary, the Plymouth was chosen because of its innovative designs.  I think the mission is to show what can be done to make it show what our innovation can do.  Many of the people interviewed after the unavailing said to leave it.  But by doing that, it will be dust in a few years.  That's evident already.
 
I get the feeling, they want to get the car to a point where it can move around under its own steam, with as much of its own parts as possible.  Given the products he has available, that may very well be possible.
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Matt Aker on January 27, 2008, 09:13:13 AM
Steve and Bob deserve a hearty thank-you for getting us involved!  What better a way to promote this site and help with a worthy cause!
 
(http://moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif)(http://moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif)
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Stitcherbob on January 27, 2008, 10:31:27 AM
I can tell you one thing....the Ultra One shtuff really works! I have test soaked some really rusty parts in a gallon of it and it's remarkable.....the rust floats off and doesn't leave etching  on the good metal. I soaked a hood latch for a 1962 Chrysler that was dark brown with surface rust, and after an overnight bath it is now going on ebay (it could almost pass for NOS!) because it looks like new. It didn't affect the white cadmium plating on the stamped base plate and it didn't even remove the factory paint from the backside that got on it when it was bolted down! (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif)

Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Mike on February 03, 2008, 12:24:29 PM

Bobby is going to be Canned!!(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)


canned potatoes????

I went I went......sheesh!

stitcherbob2008-02-15 00:10:27
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Steve on February 14, 2008, 03:28:24 PM

I got permission to post these only.  Can't get too extensive with it, but it's something.
 
On the bottom there is a pic clearly showing the holes starting in the 1/4 panel over the wheel.  If you look at the unveiling, that hole wasn't there.  http://www.moparfins.com/Miss_Belvedere/Images/557025879_56cd203bec.jpg (http://www.moparfins.com/Miss_Belvedere/Images/557025879_56cd203bec.jpg) 
 
For the unveiling shots, go here:  http://www.moparfins.com/Miss_Belvedere/Miss_Belvedere.htm (http://www.moparfins.com/Miss_Belvedere/Miss_Belvedere.htm)
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/0181.gif)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/0183.gif)
 
stitcherbob2008-02-15 00:09:32
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Mike on February 14, 2008, 04:41:10 PM
Theres a familar picture, Steve under a car. Hows it look under there Steve?

Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Steve on February 14, 2008, 04:46:25 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/Miss025.gif) 
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/Miss002.gif)
 
POLARACO2008-02-14 22:18:46
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Leaburn Patey on March 05, 2008, 04:40:13 PM
Cripes!! That's like looking at pics of a shipwreck..but still underwater.
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Steve on March 05, 2008, 05:22:12 PM
Funny you said that
 
I've recently been calling it the "Titantic with Tires"
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 06, 2008, 04:44:24 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
Funny you said that  
I've recently been calling it the "Titantic with Tires"
As most of you probably already have read, MCG magazine has been insisting that the right thing to do would be to completely hermetically seal and encase Miss belvedere as-is.
There's merit to this argument because of the posibilty that an attempt to 'restore' (?) the car will result in a larger disaster than already exists.
I get sick looking at the photos of the state that it is in now.  There are rust buckets sitting in boneyards in way better condition than that.  So my take is this: What the hell, there's nothing really to lose now.  Go for it.  The knowledge gained in the attempt will be priceless.
 
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Steve on March 06, 2008, 05:19:47 AM
Yep  There are a dozen concepts on the car including burrying it again. 
 
The owners don't want the car enclosed.  But it has to be cleaned up first.  The mission is to preserve the look, try to get it moveable under it's own steam, and light up.  Will need seat frames and a frame with springs. (Already Located)  Other than that. it's clean off the OK mud and preserve what's left. 
It's supposed to go on world tour.  Encasing it won't stop it from deteriating more.  It will have it's own transportation container too
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Steve on March 09, 2008, 11:04:46 AM
Here's a little update Stan
 
I was up there the other day looking at a few different options with Dwight.  It seems that red OK clay is into everything.  Had it been washed down real good in the beginning it would have had a better chance.
 
The clay turned to concrete.  We now understand why, it was mixed with the lime and mortar that dissolved off the walls of the vault.  When it dried it turned to cement.  Nice mess.  The Ultra one cannot penetrate it and a coating is in everything.  When I say everything, I mean everything! It's the lime in the concrete which has numerous concerns.  If the car is sealed, it will continue to deteriorate, very slowly.
 
 Bob, Dwight and I have been trying to come up with non-acid ideas to float this crap off the car without damaging it.  Acids will do more harm than good.  The mission is to get that stuff off and then derust the car.  Once that is done, the ultra one will leave a coating on the car to preserve it.
 
We can't move forward until the cement is gone.
 
The final mission is to get it running, possibly move under it's own steam and to light up.  We've located a parts car and identified what we need.  I have a rolling chassis lined up with part of the body on it.  I can't do anything more until Dwight finds a solution to the cement though.  He has a solution he devised being tested now.  But it's not strong enough yet.
 
By the way, Dwight mentioned the Ultra One has been used on a few engines as bad as this with great success.  The engine will definitely need new valve springs, but He's pretty sure he'll save most of the engine.  We've found a 301 for parts.
 
 
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 10, 2008, 04:48:00 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
 
 Bob, Dwight and I have been trying to come up with non-acid ideas to float this crap off the car without damaging it.  Acids will do more harm than good.  The mission is to get that stuff off and then derust the car.  Once that is done, the ultra one will leave a coating on the car to preserve it.
 
Here's a thought:
http://directcolors.com/ConcreteStain/speedy_clean.htm?gclid=CJiVwYjJgpICFQVvlgodsVME9Q (http://directcolors.com/ConcreteStain/speedy_clean.htm?gclid=CJiVwYjJgpICFQVvlgodsVME9Q)
(http://directcolors.com/ConcreteStain/images/speedy_clean.jpg)
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: firedome on March 10, 2008, 06:20:09 AM
No - that product is designed to take stains off concrete, without
damaging the  concrete, not actually remove concrete - you will
need to chemically react  to dissolve the concrete to remove it,
sodium bicarbonate/carbonic acid, which has relatively high pH ie: not
a strong acid - but I'm afraid the only way to get it off is to react
it with an acid of  some type, controlling and monitoring the
process very carefully, flushing with lots of water... 

Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: firedome on March 10, 2008, 06:33:58 AM
They were really stupid when they unearthed this car - they should have
done their homework BEFORE  bringing it out... Archeaologists,
when bringing  stuff up from the ocean - and the comparison to
Titanic is actually highly apt here - will immediately re-submerge such
items in

fresh water, and that is what should have been done - the whole car
should  have been placed in a water tank and flushed section by
section while in a continuous sprinkler bath.. the pageant idiots just
forged blindly ahead and the result is a car now almost impossible to
restore.



I think trying to take the concrete off will cause what's left to
completely disintegrate. If the attempt must be made, I'd advise
consulting expert Archeologists who do artifact restoration and
preservation first. Such people are found at many Universities and at
the Smithsonian, who has the best - they restore all the planes and
space vehicles for Air  & Space Museum in a huge hangar
facility in Virginia. This is a scientific problem to be solved, not by
trial and error.



Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Stitcherbob on March 10, 2008, 07:38:51 AM
Good find Stan...I would try it since it won't hurt paint......Noticed that the 5 gallon cost is much higher than Ultra One! "If it costs a lot, it's gotta work!" LOL

Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: firedome on March 10, 2008, 08:13:00 AM
AFAIK that stuff is just a detergent/surfactant... it'd be a waste of money, take a look at the chemicals in it. I used to teach Chemistry, take it from me - that ain't gonna work on solidified calcium compounds...
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: firedome on March 10, 2008, 08:21:10 AM
If you can get me a list of the chemical ingredients, I can tell you if they might be efficacious for the intended purpose.

Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Steve on March 10, 2008, 03:15:16 PM
Roger
 
Dwight, being in the chemical biz, is working with a couple of chemists on this to come up with a solution.  As said, there is a few things done.  It's very slowly disolving the concrete off bare metal parts, it's the painted stuff he is worried about.
 
Submerging the car in fresh water was basically what I was talking about.  At least flood the car with fresh water to get allot of the loose stuff off. . . .  Twight and I messed with the spare tire rim, which has a pretty thick layer on it.  That stuff is HARD!  But soaking a few Lug Bolts seems to be loosening up the stuff.  He needs to come up with something he can gently flush through certain areas to get it ready for the Ultra One. 
 
And you hit a nerve.  He wants some of the gunk to stay in place because it IS holding the car together.  At least for now.  He was thinking of getting it all out and maybe coating the inside with Fiberglass resin when done.
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: firedome on March 10, 2008, 04:32:33 PM
You'd almost have to immerse that thing in a tank for months to loosen that cement up,

and the sad thing is it would have come right off, if they'd done it right away...(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif)

Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Bill Mounteer on March 10, 2008, 08:26:57 PM
Laser? (http://www.statueconservation.com/conservation_restoration/lasers1.htm)

Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 11, 2008, 04:15:57 AM
Quote from: stitcherbob
Good find Stan...I would try it since it won't hurt paint......Noticed that the 5 gallon cost is much higher than Ultra One! "If it costs a lot, it's gotta work!" LOL
 
I'm convinced that this SHOULD seriously be looked at.  It probably isn't the "silver bullet" but, it looks like if this doesn't work, there is no chemical means to do so and the removal will have to be done mechanically.  Ultrasonic perhaps.
 
Here's more:
http://chconcrete.com/theme/5/index.php?dir=products&pg=view1.php&pid=3857&cat=0&parent=0 (http://chconcrete.com/theme/5/index.php?dir=products&pg=view1.php&pid=3857&cat=0&parent=0)
 
Ultrasonic:
http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:2FsDkBg7U10J:science.jrank.org/pages/7083/Ultrasonics.html+ultrasonic+cleaning+concrete&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us (http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:2FsDkBg7U10J:science.jrank.org/pages/7083/Ultrasonics.html+ultrasonic+cleaning+concrete&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us)
Note that concrete is listed.
 
DANG!!!  I'm really starting to get interested in this! (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: firedome on March 11, 2008, 04:38:14 AM
According to the label, it does have some acid in it,  so it might
do something, you have to react with acid of some kind to dissolve
concrete. Masons used to clean up brickwork with muriatic acid, maybe
they still do... ultrasonics are interesting, but somehow I can see it
just disintegrating the whole thing even faster! Resin coating, as
someone mentioned, might be one solution... maybe encase the entire car
as it is in a clear block, like a bee in amber!!

Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Bill Mounteer on March 11, 2008, 12:05:16 PM

I would think acid could be used based upon the assumption that the scale will dissolve faster than the the acid would react with the steel. Especially where the scale is covering a painted surface acting as a barrier to keep the acid from direct contact with steel underneath. If acid was brushed on, allowed to work for a few seconds then flushed off with running water, you should be able to dissolve just to top surface of the scale. Would take a lot of passes and take a lot of time but I don't see why it wouldn't work. I think the secret is how long to wait between applying the acid and flushing it off.

Fury4402008-03-11 16:06:43
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Leaburn Patey on March 11, 2008, 06:01:26 PM
I found Miss Belvedere's sister donor car. Spooky that it is supposedly same trim and color combo.This just might be the boost- parts wise -Dwight needs to get Missy on the road to recovery..
"resto started.." but look at the pics where the trunk used to be....
Steve,the next time you visit Missy,look up the VIN on her and see how close it is to Sissy
CBarge2008-03-11 22:09:47
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Leaburn Patey on March 11, 2008, 06:21:05 PM
As I look at the interior shots,it will match up very closely to Miss Belvedere's restoration goal-that patina kind of look without looking freshly restored.
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Leaburn Patey on June 11, 2008, 08:09:36 AM
(http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/4482085-Miss_Belvedere.jpg)
Title: Miss Belvedere vs. Stitcherbob & Polaraco
Post by: Jimmy on June 11, 2008, 08:32:37 AM
   Wasnt expecting that (covers wet spot on front of pants and heads to bathroom)