MoparFins

Techical Discussions => Tech- - FUEL => Topic started by: Jose on May 08, 2014, 04:44:37 PM

Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Jose on May 08, 2014, 04:44:37 PM
Hi All!
Its been awhile, I hope everyone is well.

So the car has been sitting patiently....for a while (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley24.gif)
In trying to get it back on the road I've
put in:

points, rotor, condenser, coil, ballast resistor,
spark plugs, and a battery.

I had the starter tested and it still works fine.

But it would not start.

Today I got another chance to take a look at it
and there is no fuel pumping to the carburetor.

So Im thinking a new fuel pump. Its going into
a 58 desoto fireflite.

I've had luck with the other parts at the chain stores
but I'm not sure about the fuel pump. Will any fuel pump
drop right in? not sure what i need.

Thanks!

Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Steve on May 08, 2014, 04:57:05 PM
Do you happen to know what engine is in it?  


You have a air compressor?  You can take a rag, wrap a nlow gun with a rag and pressurize the tank to push some gas up the line too.  Not too much air, we don't want to hurt anything.
Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Jose on May 08, 2014, 05:03:40 PM
Hey Thanks!

Yeah its a 361ci V8.
Ill try the bit of gas in the carb


i dont have an air compressor...yet
I need to build up my tool arsenal (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley16.gif)

Thanks for the tips Ill let you know how it goes

Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: dana44 on May 08, 2014, 06:02:29 PM
Also, the carb should have a vent tube you can fill the bowl of the carb through it, then check that the fuel actually pumps out of the carb.

There is also the possibility that it is not the pump itself, so, diconnect the fuel line from the carb and place it in a glass jar (DO NOT USE PLASTIC), and turn the engine over until gas comes out and into the glass jar to verify it is good. If you do get gas this way, the needle is stuck in the carburetor, or the float is stuck in the up position and needs to be cleaned..
 
An additional thing to check, agian with the glass jar or a metal pan in this case, disconnect the fuel line from the fuel pump before it goes through the pump to make sure there is good flow and no blockage from the tank to the fuel pump (a clear glass jar allows you to see junk in the fuel).
Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Steve on May 08, 2014, 08:46:53 PM
Just don't be like me and set a $60.000 DeSoto on fire with starting fluid.  LOL
POLARACO2014-05-09 17:41:22
Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Snotty on May 09, 2014, 08:33:28 AM
Quote from: POLARACO




OK, someone has to ask: you did fill the tank with some gas?  (Not trying to be cute but have seen it happen....)
Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Jose on May 09, 2014, 11:14:14 AM
OK back at it today.

Thanks Snotty haha I've been guilty of doing

that once before...just once though...for now

Thanks for the insight dana44
The carb is now spitting out gas like before.

Dang POLARACO talk about a hot rod (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley15.gif)
I've been giving it a healthy dose of starting fluid
tried some gas too

BUT still no go

It did seem to want to start

Maybe its not getting spark now?
I know I've got the spark plugs and wires
set up right. and I didn't move the distributor
when the new points went in.

How should i test for spark?

Thanks again!





Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Steve on May 09, 2014, 01:20:00 PM
Easiest way to check for spark is to pull the coil wire from the distributor cap and hold on to it.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif)   DON'T DO THAT!  Hold the wire near a metal part and spin the starter.  A bluish yellow arch should jump about 1/4 of an inch.  
Check to see if you have voltage at the + side of the coil.  Should read around 9 volts.  Check the Ballast resistor.  It should read 12V on one side and 9 on the other.  Make sure the wire from the points to the coil is in good shape.  Points gaped properly?  Cap clean?  Rotor clean and solid?  Condenser good?  
Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Jose on May 09, 2014, 05:13:56 PM
Hey POLARACO
Thanks! so i just tried that.
I got spark from the wire.
And the readings on the
multimeter were dead on.

The wire to the points from the coil
is good. I remember setting the points
to .017
I'll double check them to be sure
The rotor and condenser I put in new along
with the points
And the cap looks good and clean.

I checked the spark at the points and is was
there. not sure how bright its supposed to be
but it was blue.

Thanks for all the help.
Hopefully it'll be back on the road soon



Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Steve on May 09, 2014, 06:04:27 PM
You don't think you flooded it do you?  Take a peak at a plug and see whats going on there.


Spin it over to top dead center and see if it's near #1 on the cap.  If it's 180* out, turn the crank again.  Are you sure the firing order is in tact?
Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: dana44 on May 09, 2014, 06:44:46 PM
Well, you have spark from the coil, now see if you have spark from a sparkplug wire. You can stick an old plug into the boot then hold the threads against something metal to see if you get spark at the tip, that way you can verify no error inside the distributor to the plugs themselves.
Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Jose on May 09, 2014, 08:13:08 PM
Hey Thanks again!

I swear with all this help I'm getting
I want to buy you folks some lunch (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley16.gif)

Soooo I was cautious not to flood it
or drain the battery

I got it to top dead center.
but soon after realized that my buddy
had picked up his tools
so i couldn't take the spark plug out

BUT

I did have some layin' around so I was able
I stuck one into a couple wires and did see a spark.
I havent done it before so im not sure how intense
the spark is supposed to be, but it was there

The one thing I have not messed with is the timing
I wouldnt know where to start

I did check the firing order in the service manual
even labeled the wires

Thanks again!
You all are way too cool!

Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Steve on May 10, 2014, 11:30:13 AM
18436572  It's on the intake manifold on some engines as I recall.



Do you know if the wiring has been tampered with on this car?  So many have been butchered 
Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Snotty on May 13, 2014, 09:08:50 AM
You said it "tried to fire."  If it's trying, turn the distributor a little while starting.  It helps if you have a remote starter button so you can turn it wile the motor is turning over.  You can see what I mean by viewing this video of the first starting of my son's AMC 401 (407) in his '73 Gremlin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wFqrrHaamE
Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Jose on May 21, 2014, 04:24:19 PM
Ok,
Im back in town and can get back to the car.
So I haven't been able to get to it or post.

POLARACO and Snotty,
Thanks for the tips I'll get to it

Snotty thanks for the video!
Cool car by the way (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley16.gif)

I'm not sure about the wiring
as far as it being tampered with.

It was running fine
until it just cut out on the road.

Thanks again!


Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Steve on May 21, 2014, 07:40:45 PM
Does it sound like it's turning over normally?



Were you driving it when it stopped?  If so, describe what it felt like
Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Jose on May 23, 2014, 09:41:23 AM
Hey POLARACO.
It does sound like its turning over normally
The fuel pump seems to be working fine. I will try the can and hose
It has about 70K on it
It sounds like its firing off .
As I was driving it just died.
I was just coasting after that.
When I pulled off to the side I
opened the hood and there was no smoke
or anything that seemed off.
I would turn the switch and all the dials would come on
normally.

I tried the sip and coil + to Battery +
this morning,
Ill try Snotty's advice

Ill check back soon

Thanks Again!

Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Steve on May 23, 2014, 01:07:06 PM
And your sure there is voltage to the coil.  
Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Jose on May 23, 2014, 01:22:10 PM
Yep. I just checked it after you mentioned it. I'm getting 9.1 something I did notice though. Is there supposed to be a specific gap between the rotor and cap?
Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Steve on May 23, 2014, 10:35:28 PM
Has to have a gap so the rotor soesn't hit the posts

Mr. Ed  He's out by you.  Wanna take a ride?  Northern Cali would be the Snottster.  That's a big state

Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Jose on May 24, 2014, 01:13:01 PM
Oh OK thanks. Yeah I'm out in San Jose Ca.
Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Snotty on May 27, 2014, 09:31:50 AM
SJ is still a while from me.


You've checked fuel flow and you know you have electricity to the coil.  One thing left in my armchair Doctor's Office, check the timing chain - see if the rotor is turning.
Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Jose on May 27, 2014, 10:39:58 AM
Thanks Snotty!

The rotor is turning.

After reading and rereading the posts.

I cranked it to top dead center
removed the cap and
saw that the rotor is lined up with
the 4 cylinder and not the 1 cylinder.

is it a matter of "bumping" the wires over
to line up with the rotor?
or
is the timing too far advanced?

Thanks again!


Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Snotty on May 28, 2014, 12:11:34 PM
OK, others will hopefully chime in here, but at TDC #1 will not be lined up.  I believe that is a common misnomer.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong!
When you say "lined up," is the rotor is pointing towards the left or the right?
Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: Steve on May 28, 2014, 02:26:00 PM
Either you're not on top dead center (Marks on damper and timing chain cover) or the chain has possibly jumped.
With the marks lined up, the rotor should be pretty close to #1.  But to determine that you need to have it lined up.  You could turn the engine slightly with the belts, or get a 1 1/4 socket and breaker bar and turn it with the main nut
Title: Narrowed It Down to Fuel
Post by: dana44 on May 30, 2014, 06:46:46 PM
Yeah, and if you are lined up on the wrong wire after she was running right, you have to do a few things to figure out what went wrong.
 
Couple things to do to make sure the harmonic balancer didn't slip with age, there is a rubber seal between the inner part and outer part, time allows the rubber to let the engine torque make the two move.
 
Rotate the engine to number one according to the harmonic balancer as you have done. Now, remove the number one sparkplug and stick a wooden dowel or even a screwdriver, then move the harmonic balancer both directions about an 1/8th of a turn to see if the screwdriver (whatever) moves, verifying top dead center on the piston, if wrong rock the engine back and forth a little bit (a lot of easy play before the piston moves or feels loose means timing chain very loose, should be very little movement like a half inch and a feel of the chain catching to rotate the cam/distributor.  Once the TDC is verified this way, now check the rotor position in relation to the timing marks, see if they are off.
 
The rotor should now point to either number 1 or number 6 sparkplug wire, both are OK at this point if it was running before. If not, well, unless you have been yanking things around, timing chain no doubt has slipped.
 
You have fuel and squirting, so that should not be a major issue right now.
 
Now, if everything is OK from here, turn the key to on, then take the rotor and grab ahold of it, move it around, see if you can get any kind of movement (slop in bushings) that will make the points spark. You can get a little agressive, if the points are on one of the flats when you do this (the usual rest position), you should not be able to to it repeatedly, you might get lucky once, but not consistently. If not, then this is not the problem.
 
Check the wiring going through the distributor. Single black wire, they put a metal wire crimp clamp on the outside of the insuation to keep the wire from pulling into or out of the distributor, make sure it is not grounding anywhere, or the wire itself isn't grounding. If this is all good,
 
With a good charged battery, check the wires from the coil. I know we have gotten spark to the different locations when cranking (cap, coil, at the plugs themselves), make sure everything is clean and good, no bare wires, nothing shorting, there is different wiring that allows the key to be turned and shoot electricity which is different from when it is running, sooooo.
 
Run a wire across from one side of the ballast resistor to the other side. This bypasses the ballast, and for starting purposes, the points and condenser (replaced, right?), long enough to verify/test it is good, replaced or not.
 
This tests everything in sequence to operate/troubleshoot to operate/not operate, we go from here.