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General BS and Laughs => General Mopar Discussions => Topic started by: Jacques on October 20, 2013, 01:03:05 AM

Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Jacques on October 20, 2013, 01:03:05 AM
Very interesting article:

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/10/19/chrysler-and-fiat-a-surprisingly-good-match.aspx (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/10/19/chrysler-and-fiat-a-surprisingly-good-match.aspx)


Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: dana44 on October 20, 2013, 07:10:43 AM
That is a good article. Thanks.
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Steve on October 20, 2013, 02:55:38 PM
Yes.  For what I could get out of it. . . .


Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: dana44 on October 20, 2013, 08:13:46 PM
Kind of the same thing anyone with a little bit of automotive knowledge could have done like they did with Mitsu over the years, just not given to a foreign entity. It is a shame it is the "Big Two" now, but that's OK, I have enough knowledge myself to build what I want from what is available and not have to worry about giving money to a foreign company I don't like.
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Steve on October 20, 2013, 09:52:39 PM
I just heard Ma Mopar pushed Toyoyo out of the #3 spot
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: dana44 on October 21, 2013, 05:25:35 AM
That must be the newest news out there I haven't seen, they had just regained the number four spot after two months of being number five, so getting back to number three is quite the accomplishment. My whole point is, yeah, it was a bad situation after DBAG stripped Chrysler and all that, but how is it they were able to give, literally give, an American car company to a foreign company, give them a giant loan, and everyone that was invested in Chrysler get zilch, and the retirement union get what, 48 percent of ownership and it be legal. Welcome to FiatChrysler. Not much better than DaimlerChrylser I say.
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Jacques on October 21, 2013, 07:26:17 AM
Besides, it's debatable how "american" e.g. a US-spec ford or GM is, hejo in mexico with chinese parts. But the good part is, Chrysler survived and seems to recover pretty well with a much more dedicated partner than db.


Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: dana44 on October 21, 2013, 07:35:49 AM
I can agree with that part, yes, but I still think it would be better as ChryslerFiat than FiatChrysler. I don't mind the Mexican parts, they have some very good natural metal elements down there, superior even to the American elements in many cases. Not so wild about the Chinese stuff though.
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Jacques on October 21, 2013, 08:10:31 AM
I think almost every car nowadays has components from all over the globe. Fiat is "italian" but the cars are also assembled in Serbia etc. Toyota is "japanese" but has assembly platsn in the US, UK etc.

Fiat is of course pretty unknown on the US-market, but in Europe, it was in some ways similar to Chrysler, nice looking products with some issues. Fiat worked hard on those issues the past decade or so, and also put a lot of effort in the design of its bread&butter-brands (Fiat & Alfa Romeo).

Fiat also realised it needed a large partner in order to survive. Years before the merger, the CEO already said he expected the global market would be with 5 rather than 10 big players, and that in the situation at the time, Fiat would not be one of them.

Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: dana44 on October 21, 2013, 08:57:40 AM
That's the same line of thought with Chrysler back in the '90s, a global partner overseas, other than Mitsubishi. I originally thought he MB merger of equals was a grand idea, and it did take a couple years to figure out it was a leaching off of Chrysler problem, not a cymbiant merger. Could have been, and probably would have been a good deal had it been done that way, but it wasn't. Thing is, Sergio knows what the American/Canadian/Mexican type of car is like, the Germans didn't. European and Asians drive different cars than what we have, so to say this is a global design doesn't work, so stuffing tiny Fiat engines into big American cars doesn't work as well as they expected.  At this point I am on the downside of neutral on the merger, especially the way it went down. I look at it as, even though the economy collapsed, there had to be one auto CEO that with all the negotiating and loans to GM and Chrysler, it should have been able to make it back (again) without having to give it to a foreign entity to start with.  Guess we will see what the future really has to hold with products coming out and go from there.
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Jacques on October 21, 2013, 10:15:27 AM
MB dismembered Chrysler and threw away the parts it thought useless. MB complains the merger cost them a lot of money, but are somehow unable to pinpoint the culprit (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley21.gif)

I understand that from your perspective, you would prefer to keep ownership of Chrysler 100% US, but let's face it, GM and Ford are very strongly represented on most continents, with factories, lots of dealerships, etc.

On the other hand, Chrysler is really tiny (or even non-existent) outside the US. And I doubt if the US-market is big enough to sustain a carmaker of the size of Chrysler, considering the developments costs of new platforms, safety features, etc.

Of course the very small fiat-engines will not help in a 300 or Grand Cherokee, but the 4-cilinders would do a fine job in the 200 and similar cars (a car size that is very common in Europe as well). Especially regarding fuel efficiency, Fiat has the edge over Chrysler engines with the same displacement. The 2-cilinder miniature engines are indeed restricted to minicars like the 500 or Panda.

The other way around, the 300-platform has been used by Lancia for its top-of-the-line sedan.

But what really trickles the imagination, what if they put one of the other Fiat-owned engines (like a Maserati-V8) in a nice Mopar? That would make one nasty new 'cuda!

Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: dana44 on October 21, 2013, 11:31:18 AM
Well, there is talk that the twin turbo 3.6 in the Maserati is the 3.6 Pentastar with a few personal modifications, like hand building the engines and the likes. The American cars are heavy and safety standard requirements is a very big culprit in what can actually be done here. a 3000lb car here would weigh about 2200lbs over there. It is not totally a matter of the little engines and technology having to be from foreign countries, it's more that they want to simply take away everything that is known and thow it out the window and take credit for everything, forgetting the history and innovations done by Chrysler over an almost century. When things like BMW asks Chrysler engineers to help them design the Mini Cooper head so it works, something just doesn't add up in the "I'm smarter and have better engineers than you do", category. Look at the great synergy between Mitsu and Chrysler back in the 80s and 90s. That is how companies should work together. New technologies shared to function in each region is based on adaptabilities of that environment, not take my design and forget your design, mine is good, yours is bad, mentality.
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Jacques on October 22, 2013, 03:10:25 AM
The safety standards certainly do not add 800lbs to a 2200ls car. In Europe, there's tough competition among manufacturers to achieve the best ratings, and there's a lot of new safety features coming from European companies (Volvo, Renault, MB,...). Like I said, midrange cars of similar size to the Dart, 200 or Malibu are extremely common here, and have not much weight advantage over their US-cousins.


One thing we can agree on, it gives interesting discussions!
Sjak Brak2013-10-22 09:26:13
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: dana44 on October 22, 2013, 05:23:54 AM
Compared to the DBAG merger of equals, yes, this partnership is a lot better, I can agree with that, and the LX platform for the Lancia is a very good example of that. The weight difference is around 600lbs, actually, and that makes for driving around with three extra adults in a vehicle not designed for the mileage numbers.
 
You are right about the 19' land yachts, because you keep buying them up!
 
I am a little old fashioned when it comes to brands and the likes, just rubs me the wrong way that something with such great American history is in the position it is now, that's all.
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Jacques on October 22, 2013, 08:46:28 AM
I understand your feelings regarding the brand-stuff, but on the other hand, look on the bright side: Chrysler lives and kept its personality. Well, lets be happy VW didnt buy it, look how they killed Skoda. OK Skoda still exists, but its role is limited to designing grilles and assembling cars from the VW-partsbins....

Just looked up the weight of the Lancia Thema (with Pentastar V6) and the 300 V8, both cars weigh exactly the same actually: 1801kg (= around 4000lbs) (the diesel Lancia is considerably heavier.)

Or other example, the Voyager/T&C is also sold by/as Lancia, the Italians have been struggling for many years to put out a decent minivan, and now they finally have one.

Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Snotty on October 22, 2013, 09:22:58 AM
The most recent VW minivan is also a Chrysler.




Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Snotty on October 22, 2013, 09:25:00 AM
Never mind, picture posted.Snotty2013-10-24 14:19:13
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: firedome on October 23, 2013, 12:06:46 PM
Like Sjak says, in some ways current Euro safety and emssion standards are actually higher these days, they had the first pedestrian safety standards that required front end engine-hood clearance redesigns, and the new Euro 2014 emission requirements are the most stringent in the world.  Their crash tests are more rigorous than ours, they were first to do offset head-on testing &c.  Personally I think the amazing symbiosis of Chrysler and Fiat has been clearly evident, as mentioned in the article, and both partners have benefited, plus the fact that VM-Motori, the fact that largest diesel engine mfr in the world, is also owned by Fiat, will hopefully portend more modern high-tech diesels in passenger cars here. I, for one, want to see a plug-in 4 cyl turbo-diesel hybrid car, pickup, and SUV!  It would be competition for the upcoming amazing full electric/hybrid that SAAB is going to be bringing out with a hyper-leap in advanced battery technology... the future is here, folks, we'd be smart to embrace it and not live in the past.



firedome2013-10-23 21:03:29
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Jacques on October 24, 2013, 12:30:31 AM
Quote from: firedome
I, for one, want to see a plug-in 4 cyl turbo-diesel hybrid car, pickup, and SUV! 



The Fiat-diesels are indeed excellent, on the same level as French diesel, and ahead of ze germans.


(http://drivecult.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/5-by-peugeot.jpg)

(http://www.auto-types.com/images/_autonews/bigthumb/Peugeot-5-Hybrid4_10.jpg)



(http://static-q.blogo.it/eurocarblog/c/cit/citroen-ds5-interior-pics/Citreon_DS5_interior_pics_02.jpg)

Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Snotty on October 24, 2013, 09:18:17 AM
Here's the Skoda I took a picture of in Israel.
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/8/IMG_0830a.JPG)

Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Jacques on October 24, 2013, 09:31:44 AM
Yes thats the octavia. Basically a golf with a trunk. The fun part though is that the skoda's score better in reliability than the parent-company.

The old Skoda's, from the time of the Iron Curtain, were very quirky cars.

Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: firedome on October 28, 2013, 12:47:06 PM
My ancient experience with the French cars was very nice soft ride and amazingly comfortable seats, hope they kept some of that... like that 507, wish we still got Peugeots and Citroens here , been a long time. My old '83 504 Diesel wagon was slow but had a nice ride and got great mileage!

Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: dana44 on October 28, 2013, 01:55:10 PM
I'm installing the hardwood floors in the house so the wife and daughter went to a hotel for the weekend. Needless to say, wife got bored and went to check out new cars. She sat in a Fiat 500 and absolutely hated it. She is 6 foot and said her Mini Cooper is so much nicer it isn't even a fair comparison. One of the cars she drove, some Ford, was so bad, she had the salesman drive it back to the lot. I miss the legroom in my TR4. Can't wait to get it reassembled.
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Jacques on October 28, 2013, 11:49:02 PM
The 500 is indeed just a gimmick, ride is crap, no interior space, and if you have the automatic, well, the tranny is not good either (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif) but somehow it sells (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif)
@ Roger: French cars did not change much, way better seats and ride than german cars. And nowadays diesel technology is lightyears ahead of 30 years ago.
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Steve on October 29, 2013, 04:39:53 AM
Quote from: dana44
I'm installing the hardwood floors in the house so the wife and daughter went to a hotel for the weekend. Needless to say, wife got bored and went to check out new cars. She sat in a Fiat 500 and absolutely hated it. She is 6 foot and said her Mini Cooper is so much nicer it isn't even a fair comparison. One of the cars she drove, some Ford, was so bad, she had the salesman drive it back to the lot. I miss the legroom in my TR4. Can't wait to get it reassembled.

Heh
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: dana44 on October 29, 2013, 07:56:31 AM
Yeah, but it corners like it is on rails, literally, and this time it will have a ported, balanced, 2.5, dual Weber side drafted carb'd and a 5speed behind it, so reliability will go way up.
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: firedome on October 30, 2013, 06:53:03 AM
They do go around the corners well, but f it's anything like the TR-4a or TR-250 or 3 Spitfires I had, reliability has only one way to go ... up! The Spitfire bodies actually seemed much tighter than the TRs, those things would rattle your fillings out!

Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: dana44 on October 30, 2013, 07:09:41 AM
Oh, yeah, she rattled. I figured out how to drive the TR4 to keep her reliable. Remember, these cars were built on a large island country and were designed to drive the piss out of it from one pub to another, thus, drive her hard for less than an hour, sit in a pub for an hour, then continue to the next pub. I put 12,000 miles on the car before it was sold and I got her back with a blown head gasket, so my update includes engine and transmission change, the rest is body off frame restoration. The only rust I found was behind the bottom edge of the left fender, an easy repair and hidden, so good sheetmetal to start with, straight frame.
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Jacques on October 30, 2013, 12:03:28 PM
Quote from: dana44
Remember, these cars were built on a large island country and were designed to drive the piss out of it from one pub to another, thus, drive her hard for less than an hour, sit in a pub for an hour, then continue to the next pub.
Looking at the electrics on some english cars, I bet they designed the wiring in the pub as well (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif) of course with some help from Lucas, the prince of darkness (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)

Have to admit I do like some of those quirky britcars, usually the saloons.




Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: dana44 on October 30, 2013, 01:49:49 PM
Yeah, when I dismantled the car to restore, had the car body tipped on its side and washing the bottom of dirt (to the original black paint, not rust, by the way), I then found out I was going to have to transfer to Japan for a year. The whole wiring harness is inside a shoebox, and it only contains one fuse, so yeah, not a lot of money wasted on cloth covered copper to say the least. When I finally got my garage built, the stripped body was put on its side and slid into the back of my Dakota to move it to the garage.
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: firedome on October 30, 2013, 05:01:02 PM
Why do the Brits drink warm beer??  'Cause they have Lucas refrigerators!!  ...LOL

Actually I loved all the TRs, despite all their faults, they were/are a blast to drive. I wish all the US muscle car drivers would drive one to appreciate the difference of it...if they are real drivers that is.  IMO MGBs are even better, not as fast, but you can drive them at 10/10ths, totally balls to the wall, everything just falls in to place to a degree I've never experienced in any other car except a BMW 2002, even in my '69 XKE Jag. And the body structure is much stiffer and rigid due to overkill monococque construction, stiff even by modern day standards, nothing that a TR could ever  be accused of! You can tell MGs were really successful race cars for decades starting in the '30s... but then again I'm also a motorcycle rider of 45 years, so in reality any car suffers in comparison. I'm restoring an Italian Harley/Aermacchi Sprint 350 as the latest cycle project around here.




firedome2013-10-30 21:16:14
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: dana44 on October 30, 2013, 06:13:54 PM
I can agree with that. Had a 78 Spitfire I bought for Dad, nice and fun to drive, but yeah, drivelines were always messing up U-joints. Stiffness, no, but I am going to fix that. I put the empty body into the back of the truck by myself, I hauled the frame to the garage on my shoulder like a ladder, the block is a little bit on the awkward side and a bit on the SBC weight of a block, but those darn floating cylinders, not a travelling car by any means. I think the Dakota 2.5 and 5 spd will work just fine with a set of 4.10s in the rear end (stock, good for 400hp), and a little bit of a roll cage to stiffen things up a bit, but hey, 1750lbs, what can one expect?
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Jacques on October 31, 2013, 12:56:16 AM
The difference between the brit sportscars, and the US-musclecars is easy to understand when yo look at the roads. US-roads are usually wide and straight, UK-roads twisty and narrow.

Quote from: firedome
Why do the Brits drink warm beer??  'Cause they have Lucas refrigerators!!  ...LOL




(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)

Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: firedome on October 31, 2013, 05:26:39 AM
I've always thought that US cars were/are best for US roads, superhighways, straight in suburbs, out West really primitive. rugged, and remote in some places, which led to really overbuilt heavy powerful sturdy cars.  and European cars best for Europe's roads, narrow twisty and tight, leading to nimble light and frugal cars. The cars evolved to meet the conditions that they faced. Now everything is merging together, but more like the European mold, which is both good and bad. I miss those overbuilt steel and iron tanks of yore. But not the gas bills.

Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: dana44 on October 31, 2013, 07:03:55 AM
Yeah, I have to agree. There were too many people trying to make trecks across America in MGs, and they just weren't designed to be driven that way, thus they got a much worse reputation than the American iron. Closest British car capable of doing it the American way was the Jaguar. Built a little sturdier, but still had their issues.
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Jacques on October 31, 2013, 08:08:27 AM
Don't forget cars like the Rover 3500 and Triumph 2500, those were fine cars for trans-continental trips, but for that purpose, of course nothing beats an Imperial or C-body. (or maybe a Bentley/Rolls but haven't had the luck to do a long trip in one of those...)

Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: dana44 on October 31, 2013, 09:15:04 AM
Yes, because the Rover was a workhorse engine, vice a performance engine, not too familiar with the other. Agree with the C bodies. I drove a 1962 Cadillac Hearse several years and it was the best travelling car you can imagine, much like the C bodies.
Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: Jacques on October 31, 2013, 10:55:19 AM
And in order to make full-circle, in the past, Lancia had a few nice cars, like the Aurelia, sort of gt-car. Later on, Lancia was purchased by Fiat.

(http://www.netcarshow.com/Lancia-Aurelia_B20_GT-1951-wallpaper.jpg)

Title: Chrylser & Fiat
Post by: firedome on November 02, 2013, 07:09:49 AM
The British car mag "Autocar" once compared a '72 Rolls to a '72 Olds 98... they declared the Olds to be superior in virtually every way related to driving and dynamics, the Rolls in fit & finish and luxury materials.  They concluded that the Olds was an incredible bargain for a full-on luxury car. An Imp would have done at least equally well in comparison imo. To drive across the US anywhere, , I'd take a big American luxury car, circa '65 to '75, over anything else ever made! (as long as I didn't have to pay for the gas!)

The Triumph 2500 was a neat little sports sedan like a BMW 2002 but had the 2.5 inline six of the TR-5  (called 1968 TR-250 in US, we had one, should have kept it rattles and all) and TR-6, so it was quick too. They did sell a few here, mostly in the East. I've only seen maybe 2 of them for sale, it'd be a very cool and unusual car to have.

The Rover 3500 was good for trips because it had the Buick/Olds aluminum 215 V8, Rover bought the tooling from GM.  I had a '61 Buick Special with one, ran like a Swiss watch, but it was an expensive engine  to make, they had a block casting reject rate of over 20% I'm told, so was replaced by the iron V-6, cheap, durable, but vibrate-y. But otherwise Rover was a terrible car for reliaability - I remember when around '69-72 Rover was rated the worst car sold in the US by Consumer Reports, a friend with a 2000 TC struggled just to keep it running and on the road, nice to drive, but what a POS! Even new Land Rovers still suffer from that reputation nowadays... nice, but a constant stream of problems. Our XTerra is just as capable off road, but virtually trouble -free in comparison.

Always have loved Lancias, but they are super super rare in the US, '50/60s ones bring crazy money, and the late '70s/80s ones brought here rusted away in 5 minutes. Top Gear (UK's) Jeremy Clarkson did a hilarious show on them, pieces were literally falling off as they drove it and it finally caught on fire  LOL.

 I love Alfas too, we had a '66 Duetto boat-tail once, and still would love a pre-'73 2000GTV. I hope Chrylser/Fiat brings Alfa back, they already have really, the Dart is just a restyled Alfa, and a nice platform. Some of the Euro Alfas are some of the prettiest cars on the road IMO. And Fiat reliability is very good now I'm told.








firedome2013-11-02 11:23:12