MoparFins

Techical Discussions => Tech- - Engine => Topic started by: Brian on November 24, 2012, 09:27:12 PM

Title: 440 Questions...
Post by: Brian on November 24, 2012, 09:27:12 PM
Alright it seems when I took the wagon to the drags this summer I did hurt the motor.  It burning oil badly now.  Guess it was too much for a 90K + mile motor.  Anyway I'm search about for a good motor right now and came across a couple.  Both are cast crank motors.  My question is with the cast crank balancer on the  front of the motor will all the pullies off the 71 steel crank 440 I'm currently running still line up???
Title: 440 Questions...
Post by: Guests on November 25, 2012, 07:25:13 AM
Yes, they still line up, all the extra weight is behind the bolt pattern for the bottom pulley. Now the question is, any idea what you did to the engine? Using oil can be only a few  things (basically) and still run decently. Rings, valvetrain, and PCV, plug or wire (which you can usually feel), or an oil leak itself. Breaking a ring isn't very common, even standing on it a few times in a row, so a quick compression check should verify that. Valvetrain can be a valve guide itself, but most likely a valve stem seal that finally broke (they get real brittle with age, have torn down more than one engine figuring valve guide problems when it was simply old valve stem seal umbrellas that started leaking, fouling plugs, burning a little oil cleanly and not knowing where it was going, things like that). An old PCV can start sucking oil and burn it pretty cleanly because it goes into the intake and mixes with the fuel/air to thin it so hard to identify oil loss that way, usually an oily PCV hose, maybe a little extra seepage at connections, but still difficult to diagnose, and then the spark plug and wire problem, which is a visual check (when you do a compression test), to help narrow down the actual cylinder problem.  Actual leaks themselves are an easy enough diagnosis, the oil pump pushing higher volume over a short period of time can make old gunk loosen and start leaking, so, is she burning the oil or leaking the oil?
 
I know this is a little bit more than your question, but don't get rid of that steel crank, they are a little more difficult to locate, and can actually be swapped into the bottom end of a cast crank engine as another way to fix your cast/steel harmonic balancer dilema. 
Title: 440 Questions...
Post by: Brian on November 25, 2012, 11:41:55 AM
And no I will not be ditching that steel crank.  Block might be toast though....it sat for a long long time before I bought the car it was in.  I just tossed in a battery, some gas, and fired it up.  When I had it apart to freshen up the gaskets and seals...and new heads, cam and klifters, at the time too...I noticed small "chunks" missing from the cylinder walls.  I figured the rings were rusted solid in a few places and tore chunks out when I spun it over.  They look deeper then .060?


 

Title: 440 Questions...
Post by: Guests on November 25, 2012, 12:49:54 PM
What about trying a simple can of Engine Restore? I have had luck with it working on carboned up rings. If the rings were rusted it may help clean some of the extra junk out, make them seal a little better. Chunks out of the cylinder walls is not a good thing, but if it wasn't smoking beforehand, shouldn't be doing it just because you ran it hard as long as overheating wasn't an issue. Have you done a compression test and sparkplug check just to see if it is a cylinder problem or an equal problem, such as PCV valve stuck a little bit?
Title: 440 Questions...
Post by: Steve on November 25, 2012, 02:39:53 PM


If you never cleaned the block out, it's too late now.
Title: 440 Questions...
Post by: Stitcherbob on November 25, 2012, 03:03:24 PM
Do a leak down test on the cylinders, first dry and then with a little oil put in through the spark plug holes.....see if it is the rings and which cylinders are affected.
You might just have hurt a head gasket into an oil passage......wouldn't that be an easy fix? Burning oil at the times you said sounds like it does it under maximum vacuum.



Title: 440 Questions...
Post by: Brian on November 25, 2012, 03:24:05 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions!!(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
 
Well after the drag racing I upgraded to the stock mopar electronic ignition...car runs way better!  I'm running stock Champion plugs, and 8.8mm accel wires, cap, and rotor...all done within last 500 miles.  I have not pulled the plugs to check their condition since it has started to smoke....but before the back two plugs would foul up with oil, as well as one other on each bank...so I figure I had at least 4 weak cylinders.
 
The heads are fresh.  New valves, springs, guides, converted to Viton oil seals, and some mild porting...so there shouldn't be any problems with the heads.
 
I do run a can of that engine renew stuff....and it did make a difference after I started driving the wagon.  Before I put that stuff in I was burning a quart of oil about every 3-4 hundred miles...now I might burn a quart every 1000+ miles.
 
I have not done a compression test, or leak down test.  So no idea how the numbers look on the cylinders.
 
Someone suggested to me that it might be the intake pan leaking.  Since it does seem to be building up oil in high vacuum situations.  So would be pulling oil out of the lifter valley and into the intake passages during this time.  I was planning on doing a cam and intake swap next season, so might do this first and see what happens.
 
As for rebuilding it Steve...appreciate the offer...but the cars in storage now until spring...so this won't be happening any time soon.  And not sure if the block could be machined out...and not sure if I want to spend that much on machining and parts right now.  Too many other things to get to on the other cars.  Would prefer to just pick up a low mile 440 and swap it in for now.  I can alway get around to rebuild the 71 400 later...if it even can be machined.  And I also forgot to mention that I might have one of the head bolts snapped off in the block.  So not sure if I would be able to get that out or not, so the block might be toast due to that as well. 
 
Title: 440 Questions...
Post by: Guests on November 25, 2012, 04:13:07 PM
Bolts go in, bolts come out, not a reason to junk a block no matter what. Anyway, sounds like it is on the back burner anyway, but would figure swapping in another cam setup with everything else being bad, kind of a waste of time and money in my book.  I guess we have all winter through spring to have you make up your mind what you want to do, but really hate to toss anything out without knowing what the failure is (like Viton seals failing because they don't get enough oil to them anyone?).

Title: 440 Questions...
Post by: Brian on November 25, 2012, 05:59:19 PM
Yes it's on the back burner...but had already given up on it in my head.  That was why I was looking for another short block.  But after what you guys have been suggesting I might just wait and see what I (we) can figure out is the real problem before yanking the motor.
 
And as for the cam swap...it`s an old cam I had in a 383 years ago.  Pulled and stored properly so all the lifters are marked for proper installation again.  It`s a 440-6, Hemi grind cam from Mopar performance.  Just wanted to toss it in for a little more of a lumpy idle.
 
 
 
Title: 440 Questions...
Post by: Guests on November 25, 2012, 08:10:53 PM
Good for you, but dropping the cam in a hurt engine isn't going to do much to fix the problem. Back burner, got it.
Title: 440 Questions...
Post by: Brian on November 26, 2012, 09:34:13 AM
Quote from: dana44
Good for you, but dropping the cam in a hurt engine isn't going to do much to fix the problem. Back burner, got it.


 
Good point...will at least wait until I find out what's really wrong before swapping the cam.  Keep things as close to the original "known good" condition as possible.
 
 
Title: 440 Questions...
Post by: Guests on November 26, 2012, 10:42:33 AM
Believe it or not, the Viton seals in the past had a history of galling if over revved or worked too hard because they keep the valve stems extremely dry to prevent oil consumption. Might be something that simple.
Title: 440 Questions...
Post by: Brian on November 26, 2012, 02:28:28 PM
But could a 440 over rev those seals??  And what is working them too hard??  Interesting thought though...and worth a look at when the time comes.
 
 
Title: 440 Questions...
Post by: Guests on November 26, 2012, 02:52:22 PM
Viton seals were originally designed for the early 80s, where a redline was all the way down to 4500-4800 rpm in those days, so there were a lot of engines that started smoking early, a lot of the blame was given to the new blends of gasoline and unleaded gas, then junked early. I don't know how many times you ran her, or how high the rpm went with the full throttle and all that, but not something you regularly did several times in a row historically, so hey, until it is torn down, don't know for sure what the reason is.
Title: 440 Questions...
Post by: Steve on November 26, 2012, 04:50:39 PM


When you start it up, cold or hot, do you get a puff of blue smoke?
Title: 440 Questions...
Post by: Tom Dawson on November 27, 2012, 01:00:50 PM
if she is pushing out a cloud of blue all the time, sounds like the rings have had it, those old rings could have been damaged by sticking to the piston, cylinder wall, or detonation .

Tom



Title: 440 Questions...
Post by: Steve on November 27, 2012, 02:31:40 PM


Could be sucking oil down the guides too
Title: 440 Questions...
Post by: Guests on November 27, 2012, 03:28:28 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
Could be sucking oil down the guides too
Thus the Viton seal conversation.