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Techical Discussions => Tech- - Engine => Topic started by: Dan Cluley on November 03, 2011, 08:31:33 PM

Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Dan Cluley on November 03, 2011, 08:31:33 PM
I am in the process of tearing apart my ’74 318 in order to replace the cylinder heads.
 
It has been quite a few years since I’ve done anything like this, and never on a SB, so I’ve got some questions.
 
1.  Head Gaskets:   Do these go on dry, or with some sort of sealant?




 
2. The metal gaskets between the heads/intake have raised ridges around the holes.  Does the raised side go against the head, the intake, or doesn’t matter?
 
3. There are two cork gaskets for the front and rear of the intake where it sits on the block.  Do these go on dry or with some sort of sealant?
 
4.  The exhaust gaskets are smooth on one side, and metallic with dimples on the other.  Does it matter which side goes to the head, and which goes to the manifold?
 
5.  Finally, I noticed that one of the lobes on the cam has a brown stripe that runs most of the way around it.  I turned the engine over, and that rocker seems to move just like the others.  So, impending doom, or nothing to worry about?
 
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/dcluley/Camcloseup.jpg)
 
Thanks,

Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Guests on November 03, 2011, 10:30:24 PM
From the top.
 
1. Head gaskets go on dry. The dowel pins will only allow them to go on one way.
 
2. Unless the gasket has a "to manifold", or "this side up", it doesn't matter. put a little bit of blue or black Permatex wiped very thin on both sides of the gasket. You don't want much more than enough to stick to the gasket, no globs or thickness of any amount, it is a "press fit" with the bolts tightening down. Do the head side first, then sit it on, then do the manifold side right before you are ready to install manifold.
3. Again, thin smear on the surface of the block, a dab about the size of a pea on the corner, sit the gasket in place, another pea at the corner where the two gaskets meet.
A trick I then learned about keeping the intake manifold from getting oil to puddle on top, install one bolt on each of the four corners, this is to line the manifold up. Each bolt hole goes into the pushrod gallery area and goes all the way through. Each bolt you put into the intake manifold, three threads from the end going into the head, wipe permatex thread deep into the threads and install. do all of them quickly so you can tighten all of them within about 30 minutes, remember your brackets, and don't forget the first four bolts you did. Not putting the Permatex on the very last three threads keeps the Permatex from entering the oil area, but your intake will remain clean for the rest of its assembly, works every time.
4. Again, it should say "manifold" or something like that, otherwise metal to engine, dimpled material to manifold (because the manifold flexes and may not clamp flat.
5. Basically you have a well worn cam. Lifters are not flat on the end, they are slightly dimpled in order to rotate and wear more evenly. Since the cam has worn as much as it has, both sides are hitting outside the cam lobe, which starts happening about 2/3 the life of the cam, but hey, it's a 318 and they run forever anyway, right? If you rotate the engine and look at the lobes of the cam, you will probably see small to medium pits starting to form on the ends. This is the hardening process to keep cams alive starting to break down to the softer center. After it goes, then they start cutting the face of the lifter, kind of like a blister on your heel, it only takes a sharp (hardening process) to scrape against the lifter to eat away after a while. I would give it another 50K-75K, they are mild lift cams so they can go this way for quite a while.
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Snotty on November 04, 2011, 01:29:23 PM
Since you're doing this I would recommend getting a book, such as "Chrysler Engine Rebuild Manual" by Haynes, or some other one.  This way you would not need to wait for an answer to an e-mail question - it will be there for you.
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Steve on November 04, 2011, 02:42:22 PM

Quote from: D Cluley
I am in the process of tearing apart my ’74 318 in order to replace the cylinder heads.
 
It has been quite a few years since I’ve done anything like this, and never on a SB, so I’ve got some questions.
 
1.  Head Gaskets:   Do these go on dry, or with some sort of sealant?




 
[color=#ff0000" size="3" face="Times New Roman]The head gaskets only go one way.  Which ever way the fall, the fall[/color]
 
[color=#ff0000" size="3" face="Times New Roman]You can.  A thin coat helps after they've been in there a while.[/color]
 
[color=#ff0000" size="3" face="Times New Roman]Shiney side goes toward the exhaust manifold[/color]
 
I would have to seen the end of the lobe, but chances are it's pitted.  That means the hardened surface is worn out.  Like what Ed said, the lifters are cupped.  Good reason to put in a chain and gears.  That alone will perk that motor up.  Cam and lifter time.
 
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/dcluley/Camcloseup.jpg)
 
Thanks,
I hope I made that simple for you
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Tom Dawson on November 05, 2011, 05:28:19 AM
I would install a new oil pump, to be on the safe side, metal from the cam has to go somewhere.


Tom



Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Dan Cluley on November 06, 2011, 12:59:37 AM
Thanks to all for the info and suggestions.  Given time and money constraints, I'm just going to do the head swap now, and plan on cam/lifters/timing chain next summer.
After a couple of days work, this is how it looks.   Gotta say, a V8 A body with PS/PB & A/C makes me appreciate how much room there is in the Chrysler.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/dcluley/day2.jpg)
 
I think I can see why #4 & #6 don't have any compression.  I'm expecting #5 to look similar. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)
 
D Cluley2011-11-06 05:03:17
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Guests on November 06, 2011, 07:54:50 AM
Are all the exhaust valve like that, or just these two so far? They don't even look like the right sized vavles are in there, they don't wear this way when running unleaded in leaded heads, they are sealing too well. Usually the valve itself burns down and becomes thin, this looks like the seats are just junk, or too small valves are installed in the head. What do the other two valves look like in this head, and can't wait for the other head pictures.
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Steve on November 06, 2011, 12:18:48 PM


Probably the first time the heads have been off.  Amazing it ran all this time.  Good call Dan
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Guests on November 06, 2011, 02:28:39 PM
Can you give some other angles of the valves? the sides of the exhaust hole just looks like it is all wrong. How much taller, also, are the vavle tips when you run a straight edge along the tops of all the valve stems? The deepness of these two valves shown would be roughly .250inch these valves would stick up on the other side of the head, and they would have been just wrong, putting a lot of extra pressure on the lifters, which would have been bottoming out all the time, just all the way around wrong here. I want to see the valves out of the head and the vavle seat in the heads. That and a picture of a straight edge across the tops of all the valves to see the difference in height of the valves. Thing is in looking at the valve colors, the heads were burning very clean and efficient, just low compression, but sealed really well.
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Dan Cluley on November 09, 2011, 09:57:32 PM
Haven't had a chance to get any more photos, but yes, the exhaust valves are sticking up higher than the intakes on the top side of the head. 

Got back to it today, and have the new head on the passenger side
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Guests on November 09, 2011, 10:23:08 PM
So you have new heads for both sides?
 
Hopefully so. Looking at the valves on this one head I would say the rings are OK and you won't have a problem. Hopefully all the exhaust valves are this color.
 
OK, as far as the stems pushing up higher, they aren't supposed to be that way.
 
Are you changing the oil pan gasket, too? Drop a new oil pump in her for less than $30 is always a good idea.
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Dan Cluley on November 10, 2011, 11:46:49 PM
Yep, definitely doing both sides.  Took way too long, but I did get the old head off the driver's side today.  In order to get enough room to get the manifold unbolted from the exhaust pipe, I had to pull the starter, and that actually took longer than pulling the head itself.(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)

#5 exhaust valve is sunk in just like those other two, I'm wondering if the seals were going too, as that cylinder is a sludgy carboned up mess.  #3 still had good compression, but looks like it has started to sink in as well.



 
Not planning on anything underneath at this point.  I've really run out of decent weather, and need to get this one back together so I can park the convertible.
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Guests on November 11, 2011, 09:36:03 AM
I imagine the engine was rebuilt, or at least the heads were rebuilt and cheap valves were put in if nothing else.
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Steve on November 11, 2011, 12:16:47 PM


It's amatures rebuilding this stuff that scares me.  That's what has me concerned about the 413 in the Diamond
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Guests on November 11, 2011, 12:32:13 PM
Oooooo. yeah, that can be a problem. Internal parts are items I don't like skimping on when it comes to internals. It's one thing to add a cheap water pump or valve cover, but bearings (Clevite 77), moly rings (moly is moly, as apposed to cast iron), and everything else stock (cams, I like Crane, Isky, Mellings, but not Crower), and if it comes down to pistons, gotta be forged or hypertuectic and no such thing as cheap pistons, valves are either stock  (because they are good to begin with), Manley or stainless one piece of several other brands, no cheap Chinese stuff, that's where a problem like this comes from.
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Dan Cluley on November 11, 2011, 09:36:58 PM
I was told that the motor had been rebuilt, but who knows what was actually done, or when?
 
Today was kind of a wash,  The new heads are a few years newer than the old ones, and have the little smog ports under the exhaust outlets.  I figured since they were already plugged, that I was good to go.  Nope, turns out there is a small spot that has to be ground down or the driver's side manifold doesn't sit right. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)
 
Took two trips to the hardware for grinding bits, but it should be ready to go on tomorrow. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Guests on November 12, 2011, 07:21:26 AM
At least you caught it before you installed and ran the engine with a giant exhaust leak.
 
Quality proven internal parts material is important. I imagine the heads were done with some kind of cheap valves.
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Dan Cluley on November 17, 2011, 08:49:28 PM
I'm so close I can taste it.  (and it's mostly rust flake flavored, gotta keep my mouth closed when working underneath. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif))
 
At this point every thing is back together except the alternator (the bolt that goes through the adjuster slot snapped off) and 2 spark plugs.  (the local supermarket doesn't carry that size, and NAPA isn't open at 9pm)
 
I won't have much time tomorrow, but I'm going to try to fire it up even if the alt isn't ready to go back in.
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Guests on November 17, 2011, 09:24:33 PM
I hate it when alternator bolts break.
 
Best of luck firing her up.
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Dan Cluley on November 20, 2011, 12:49:55 AM
It's running. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)   Still no alternator, and it's got a heck of an exhaust leak where the pipe bolts to the pass side manifold, but I ran it 3-4 miles this evening and it is much, much smoother.  Was getting a funky reading from the timing light, so just set it by ear for now.  21 inches of vacuum at idle.   Might be burning a little oil on the drivers side, or just might be crud in the system.  Once I get everything else sorted out, going to run some seafoam through it.
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Guests on November 21, 2011, 07:47:14 AM
Either that or Engine Restore. Had good luck with that stuff. Glad to hear she is running better.
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Guests on March 06, 2012, 08:45:15 PM

Quote from: furyman67
I would install a new oil pump, to be on the safe side, metal from the cam has to go somewhere.


Tom



(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif) I am poor at installing oil pump, can you tell me how to operatie.(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif)

Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Dan Cluley on December 13, 2012, 06:20:39 PM


I've put 15,000 miles on the car since changing the heads, and everything seems to be working well.  :)
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Guests on December 13, 2012, 07:19:02 PM
Wow, that's pretty good for one year. Glad everything works well.
Title: Small Block questions
Post by: Steve on December 14, 2012, 05:36:51 AM
Hey Dan   I see you around from time to time
 
Good to hear