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Techical Discussions => General Tech => Topic started by: Robert Rottman on October 06, 2011, 04:19:00 AM

Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Robert Rottman on October 06, 2011, 04:19:00 AM
My DeSoto Firesweep started leaking from the heater hose connection at the firewall last night. Thankfully it leaked down the outside of the firewall onto the ground....not into the interior (floor). The upper nipple must have a crack/rot hole in it. Anyways, I wound up bypassing it with a piece of copper pipe to connect it to the water pump return and had no leaks thereafter. Here's the heater hose route...From water pump to connection at firewall into heater core (under dashboard)....out from inner heater core to big horizontal plenum in engine bay (behind air cleaner) with attached blower. Out from this horizontal plenum back to water pump. My question is: Are there 2 heater cores?...and why would that be? Has anyone removed the heater core under the dash? Is it difficult?




 
Thanks, Bob
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Steve on October 06, 2011, 08:22:16 AM


What year Desoto is this again?
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: firedome on October 06, 2011, 08:26:03 AM
As the title says!  Only one core on a 58 DeS if memory serves,
I'd just bypass it unless you intend to drive it in winter or rain/fog,
I usually do a bypass anyhow. I may need one myself one of these days!

Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Steve on October 06, 2011, 12:05:02 PM


Yes.  1 core.  It's accessable from under the hood.  The bottom bolts.  Should be under the sub cover
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Snotty on October 06, 2011, 01:12:54 PM
Bob, the '62 NY had a similar set-up, as did many Chryslers in the early '60s.  I thought the car had 2 cores too, but what I thought was the second in the NY was the heat control valve.  The coolant entered and exited the core, then went into the valve and right back out.  I'll bet that's the same with your 'Soto.
 
You can see the set-up in this picture.  The hoses on the upper left are the control valve.  It's actually just a loop inside the box.
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/8/enginefront.JPG)
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Steve on October 06, 2011, 01:55:21 PM



Why is it the engine compartment looks much better now?  LOL
POLARACO2011-10-06 19:16:29
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Robert Rottman on October 06, 2011, 05:09:50 PM
Thanks guys I really appreciate all the feedback. I'm glad to know that the connection at the firewall (top left) is a heater control valve and not a heater core. The heater core is obviously in the long horizontal plenum behind the air cleaner then. Thanks Snotty...the photo you posted is very similar to my 58 DeSoto. I hope heater control valves are available! At least I can keep it bypassed until I find one...
 
Thanks again...you guys are (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif) Here's a couple of photos for you to enjoy.
 (http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e45/bigredfury/September-October2011024-1.jpg)
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e45/bigredfury/September-October2011038.jpg)
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e45/bigredfury/carslatesummer-fall2011363.jpg)
furyfever2011-11-22 11:29:35
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: firedome on October 07, 2011, 03:28:10 AM

That's some collection Bob! Hadn't seen the '57 before... love that
Gold and White, gorgeous, and sooooo much better than yet another '58
Christine clone!!



Of you look at Pg. 1 of Steve's "Blue Diamond" thread there's a real
good pic of the '62 Chrysler heater box rear view dismounted from the
car showing some of the heater core...


firedome2011-10-07 08:40:31
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Robert Rottman on October 07, 2011, 04:30:26 PM
Thanks Roger...I appreciate the kind words. After looking on e-bay for a heater control valve they look very pricey...They're anywhere from $200-400.00. Not me...not now(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif) 
 
Has anyone improvised in a way like this before? Couldn't I just put an inline shutoff (from the local hardware store) and then go directly to the heater core with the hose?...In the summer shut the flow off and in the fall turn the flow back on (when I want heat)? I'd just have to go under the hood to turn the heat on...Then just the heater control (slide bar) in the car wouldn't be operational. The stock heater control valve just shuts off the flow right?...and it's hooked up to the slide bar on the heater control I presume... 
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Guests on October 07, 2011, 05:35:44 PM
You should be able to use a newer one. Find out what makes it operate, usually a cable or electric, figure cable, so that when the AC is turned on, or when the heater slide bar is in the cold air position, it is sliding the valve closed. If you have a picture we can look at, sure one of us could get you in the right direction to look at for make and model.
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Snotty on October 08, 2011, 09:07:00 PM
Nice cars Bob.
 
Good luck on that valve.  Mine was stuck which was why I pulled it, but it did not leak.  After some lube and a little massage it worked great. 
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Brian on October 12, 2011, 11:49:01 AM
Do a search for "Heater Control valve" on e-bay...there are a ton of different options out there.  Pull your existing one and see if you can find something that will work.  Shouldn't be too hard.  Leave the $400 control valve for those people who HAVE to have an original part. 

Me I'll take a more modern, easy to find part, that is a fraction of the cost, and still functions the same, any day.



Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Robert Rottman on October 19, 2011, 09:08:16 AM
I finally got some time last night to pull the heater control valve out of the car. At first glance, the valve mechanism seemed to work well...I blew into the inlet and worked the valve lever and it shut off almost all of the flow of air. I though it was in good shape except for the copper nipples. They were bent up a bit and initially I thought "well...that's why it's leaking". I was able to straighten them out very nicely so I brought it to work today to pressure test it....but it leaked like a sieve from the backside. So I guess I'll need to get this one rebulit or find a a similar one that will work. I saw a guy that rebuilds them on the net...JC Auto Restoration, Inc. Looks like this one will be $145.00.
 
  http://www.jcauto.com/heater.html (http://www.jcauto.com/heater.html)
 
furyfever2011-10-19 14:13:29
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Guests on October 19, 2011, 10:15:36 AM
Is it leaking along a seam that could be soldered to seal it or would that be an impossibility?
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Robert Rottman on October 19, 2011, 10:31:58 AM
Quote from: dana44
Is it leaking along a seam that could be soldered to seal it or would that be an impossibility?
 
No...It looks like it's leaking from the backside of the valve...The copper tubes look good- no holes or cracks. I'm thinking there's an old, cracked or worn seal/o-ring/washer inside of the valve.
 
 
furyfever2011-10-19 15:44:22
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Steve on October 19, 2011, 11:26:17 AM


You could epoxy it, but it's going to have to be super clean.  If it goes that far, may as well solder it.  I'm thinking the Brass rotted away though
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Brian on October 19, 2011, 12:19:14 PM
Can you post a pic of the valve...maybe someone can find an aftermarket unit that would work?
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Steve on October 19, 2011, 12:58:59 PM


I know a guy who rebuilds them.  Let me try to find the info.  It's in the trunk of the Diamond
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: steve sclafani on October 19, 2011, 01:18:08 PM
Bob,
I had a similar problem on my 60 Desoto. I thought I was lucky when I found an NOS Heater Control Valve.  The new valve leaked after 50 years on the shelf. Turns out Napa sells a rebuild kit. I do know there were two manufacturers, one is Ranco. The kit doesent consist of much. It's probably harder to get the valve out and back in than rebuilding it.
JC Restoration does good work but they are pricey$$$
Good Luck,
The other NJ Steve
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Robert Rottman on October 19, 2011, 04:26:58 PM
Quote from: thrashingcows
Can you post a pic of the valve...maybe someone can find an aftermarket unit that would work?

(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f31/biggreenfury/September-October2011005.jpg)
 
This is a robertshaw valve. I'll have to call NAPA to see if they can get a rebuild kit for it. I did notice that once I mess with it though JC Restoration won't accept it as a core.(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)
 
 
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Steve on October 19, 2011, 06:21:54 PM


You need to get it rebuilt.  I should be dropping the car down tomorrow so I can get into the trunk.  That's where the valve is with his address/email.  He's in Canada
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Brian on October 20, 2011, 05:33:09 PM
What is up with the long wire with the coils on the end...A/C temp sensor and actuator?  Looks like a bit of a complex piece.  If it does have an A/C control then you might be better off getting it rebuilt.  If you are looking for function over appearance then I'm sure you could make something work.



Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Guests on October 20, 2011, 06:45:08 PM
Doesn't look too complicated, either the stem is leaking or the connection is leaking. The little tabs hold the cage for the spring and open/close mechanism. I see a roll pin that most likely holds a spring and plunger on the inside so pressure is on both sides of the plunger (spring outside). When the cage is taken off, the plunger and stem should also come out, looks like the cage holds it in place, alignment tab there on the outside end. A plumbing or air conditioning store should have a seal that can hold the pressure and temperature. The big question is whether or not the stem itself is pitted and that is where it is leaking, which would have to be made out of a machined stainless bolt the size of the existing threads. It is probably a spring on the inside, cap on the end and an E-clip, like a fuel accelerator pump.
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Steve on October 20, 2011, 07:15:47 PM


I started to dig out the infor for you. . .But I have to pull another 100 pounds out to get to the info for you
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Guests on October 20, 2011, 08:16:29 PM
OK, so instead of a spring inside so it has equal tension on both sides so the simple single wire push/pull dash knob can move it in both directions, it has a thermostat inside it. No big deal, not worried about it, worried about it leaking, where, and an ability to seal it. Not even going to touch the thermostatically controlled spring in it at all.
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Robert Rottman on October 21, 2011, 07:18:37 AM
Thanks for all your thoughts on this guys. I appreciate it. I was confused about the thermostat probe too. This is a non-AC car by the way. The curly coil at the end goes in the heater core box. I guess it overrides the setting on the manual controls when the engine coolant reaches steady state temp? At least...That's what a guy at work said when he looked at it.  I still don't quite get it though because the heater control valve seems to be normally open...(I can blow through the valve until I push the valve lever which is what the slide bar would do as I push the slide bar towards "warmer")  This would shut the flow of hot coolant off to the heater core and wouldn't cooler air be blown in then?  Maybe that's when the thermostat kicks in and opens and closes the valve with small adjustments...I don't know. My pea brain was fried too many times when I was young and dumb I guess....
 
Anyways...second and more important thought that I hope I can get an answer to...because I want to get the proper mix of antifreeze in the car this weekend and button the car up for the winter. Couldn't I just put in a 5/8" OD brass on/off valve from the hardware store in line to the heater core for now until I decide on what to do with this original valve? Then next spring...I could leave the flow ON to get heat in the car and when summer comes I could shut it OFF? It wouldn't hurt anything to totally shut it off  would it? I know that's what the original valve does...but I'm thinking the original valve may never shut off ALL flow...It wouldn't put a strain on the water pump would it?...or create leaks elsewhere?
 
Thanks, Bob
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Guests on October 21, 2011, 08:41:39 AM
If you are going to go to that extent, get yourself one that is vacuum operated or manual operated and simply adapt it, simply put, placed in the heater line. There are vacuum operated ones that start around 1973-1975, just have a vacuum switch to allow the flow to start and shut off, or a mechanical one that uses the existing cable, just make a bracket for it, cover the hole.  No AC makes it easier because you could go back to the late 60s to early 70s when they had manual controlled valves (Rockauto still carries a few, GM trucks would work for around $12) and you could manually control it just the same, just get rid of that faulty expensive piece. 
 
Your manual valve you talked about would be fine, pressure wouldn't be an issue, but a little flow through it prevents the heater core from collecting sediment or rusting out from stagnant fluid or an air bubble.
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Robert Rottman on October 21, 2011, 09:18:55 AM
Yeah...That's probably the best thing to do...A few of the other guys have suggested that I should do this already. Perhaps a control valve from our fine C-bodied cars would work. I'll have to start really looking for one...actually I did see some already but I found that they were quite expensive as well (on e-bay). Obviously, I can't get it for this weekend so I think I'll just hook the hoses straight up to the heater core for now to get the antifreeze in it for the winter.
 
Thanks!
 
furyfever2011-10-21 14:36:53
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Guests on October 21, 2011, 10:01:29 AM
Definitely hook it up direct. As long as there is a heater door to block off the hot air, or allow you to direct the hot air where you want it to go, like defrost, panel or floor, not having a valve only prevents you from shutting the flow off.
 
Try Rockauto.com  
 
I looked at several of them, vacuum and manual control, my post talks about it, most are vacuum operated now, but they do list like 1965 C10 truck valves that are still manual, or around a 1972 Dodge Challenger, after thinking about it, would work. It actually has two hoses in and out, but only one in and out is controlled and the bottom connection could be cut off, not neede and not controlled at all.
 
Bet this would work:    http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=815513 (http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=815513)
 
dana442011-10-21 15:13:22
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Steve on October 21, 2011, 03:46:10 PM


I have a C Body unit, but I won't be up in Willet until 10 or so on Sunday
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Robert Rottman on October 25, 2011, 05:24:29 AM
Quote from: dana44
Definitely hook it up direct. As long as there is a heater door to block off the hot air, or allow you to direct the hot air where you want it to go, like defrost, panel or floor, not having a valve only prevents you from shutting the flow off.
 
Try Rockauto.com  
 
I looked at several of them, vacuum and manual control, my post talks about it, most are vacuum operated now, but they do list like 1965 C10 truck valves that are still manual, or around a 1972 Dodge Challenger, after thinking about it, would work. It actually has two hoses in and out, but only one in and out is controlled and the bottom connection could be cut off, not neede and not controlled at all.
 
Bet this would work:    http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=815513 (http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=815513)
 
 
Thank you Ed...I really appreciate all the time you looked around for me. I'm sure from all your research I can come up with something to go in there, that will function just like original and also look good too.
 
You're a great forum friend to help me like this (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
 
Bob 
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Guests on October 25, 2011, 06:11:50 AM
Bob, pretty simple. Too many times people waste time trying to jury rig something that doesn't work, and although you don't sound like one of those, I would hate to see you waste a ton of time or money (we are all short of those things), so thought I would help out. There may even be something that has a bracket so you can put the actual cable and arm inside the heater box so it covers the hole and looks stock other than the hose direction itself.
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Robert Rottman on October 25, 2011, 08:22:40 AM
Ed...Except for the price...I liked the looks of this one.
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-19-68-MOPAR-Heater-Water-Control-Valve-A-C-AC-/140213670806trkparms=algo=LVI&itu=UCI&otn=1&po=LVI&ps=63&clkid=3728592991431095991&_trksid=p4506.m7&item=140213670806&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-19-68-MOPAR-Heater-Water-Control-Valve-A-C-AC-/140213670806trkparms=algo=LVI&itu=UCI&otn=1&po=LVI&ps=63&clkid=3728592991431095991&_trksid=p4506.m7&item=140213670806&vxp=mtr)
 
 
Very similar to mine (although it's for an AC car). The positive side of all this, I have the luxury to take my time and look now...I put the heater hoses directly on the heater core and added the new antifreeze this past weekend so that's all set for the winter now...The interior has been removed and is at the upholstery shop, so time is on my side now to look and find a control valve over the winter. I'm scraping and treating the rust on the floorpans in the meantime. So it's all good.  I just thought about this...I guess maybe it would be considered a project car now...so perhaps I should post some starting/progress photos over in that area.
 
Thanks again...for everything...
Bob
 
Here's another photo (that I really like) of the car. I hope you all enjoy.
 
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e45/bigredfury/September-October2011029.jpg)
 
 
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Guests on October 25, 2011, 08:56:48 AM
She is definitely a beauty.
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Steve on October 25, 2011, 11:20:14 AM


The listing is removed so I couldn't see what you were looking at.  But it shouldn't matter if it's AC or not.  It's a matter if the valve is any good or not.  Some of the used ones don't shut off because the rubber stoper is gone or bad.
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Robert Rottman on October 25, 2011, 07:06:31 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
Do you want the information of the valve rebuilder?  You seemed to have go off on a tangent there. . .  That guy sometimes has them on ebay, but I have his info.  I stopped looking for it when you went off with a non-stock plan.
 
 
 

Yes Steve, I'd like the rebuilder's name and contact info. 
furyfever2011-11-22 11:31:15
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Robert Rottman on November 22, 2011, 06:38:23 AM
Thanks for the info. Steve. I'll just pass it on to others in case they need a rebuilder. I decided to go with "delcojoe". That's his e-bay member id. For $83.00 total, he'll rebuild mine and send it back to me. I'll let you all know how it goes. I just saw an NOS valve like mine go for $166.00 on e-bay and it was untested!!
 
furyfever2011-11-22 13:44:47
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Steve on November 22, 2011, 07:38:30 AM


I forgot to ask you Bob. .  Where did DelcoJoe come from?  Did you finbd him or was that the eGay link I sent you?
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Robert Rottman on November 22, 2011, 09:06:05 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
I forgot to ask you Bob. .  Where did DelcoJoe come from?  Did you finbd him or was that the eGay link I sent you?
 
Yes, it was you who sent that eGay link to me...It's mainly delcojoe's rebuilt heater core valves. "rebuilt" was the key word you used in your search. I didn't think to use it so I did'nt find these. He doesn't have the valve that I need (already rebuilt) so I asked him if he could rebuild mine and he got right back to me with a yes, a price and his address. Sounds like a very nice guy! So...It was you once again Steve, helping out yet another mopar freak (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) Thanks man (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif) Here it is below for anyone else who may need it.
 
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l2736&_nkw=rebuilt+heater+valves (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l2736&_nkw=rebuilt+heater+valves)
 
 
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Steve on November 22, 2011, 11:24:14 AM


My mind is so cluttered with stuff, I do stuff like a machine lately
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Robert Rottman on December 20, 2011, 08:00:10 AM
Just a "follow up" post here.  I sent delcoJoe the heater control valve out of my 58 DeSoto. He rebuilt it and got it back to me in just a little over one week. I tested it outside of the car. It seems to work well now with no leaks and...It looks like its brand new too! His charge: $83.00 total (+ ~$5.00 shipping to get it to him). He's a very trusting soul too which is totally unheard of in this day of age. He sent it back to me without payment to him first. He just asked me to send him a check once I received it and was satisfied (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif) 
 
Bottom Line...
 
Delco Joe does great work to the customer's satisfaction and at a fair price.
 
Thanks for this recomendation Steve (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
Title: 1958 DeSoto heater core leak?
Post by: Steve on December 20, 2011, 08:36:40 AM


I'll have to keep him in mind