MoparFins

Techical Discussions => Tech- - Engine => Topic started by: Steve on December 11, 2010, 08:01:42 PM

Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 11, 2010, 08:01:42 PM
I need some help with this.
 
I was thinking about sticking a turbocharger in the New Yorker.  That ought to get that sucker moving.
 
But I am having trouble finding a turbo to fill my needs.  I know what the CFM is and I figure 8 to 10 PSI will be the max for a stock motor.
 





CFM Selection Chart / Volumetric Efficiency assumed to be 100%


Engine

Maximum Engine RPM


C I D

1000

1500

2000

2500

3000

3500

4000

4500

5000

5500

6000

6500

7000

7500

8000

8500

9000


100

29

43

58

72

87

101

116

130

145

159

174

188

203

217

231

246

260


200

58

87

116

145

174

203

231

260

289

318

347

376

405

434

463

492

521


225

65

98

130

163

195

228

260

293

326

358

391

423

456

488

521

553

586


250

72

109

145

181

217

253

289

326

362

398

434

470

506

543

579

615

651


300

87

130

174

217

260

304

347

391

434

477

521

564

608

651

694

738

781


325

94

141

188

235

282

329

376

423

470

517

564

611

658

705

752

799

846


350

101

152

203

253

304

354

405

456

506

557

608

658

709

760

810

861

911


400

116

174

231

289

347

405

463

521

579

637

694

752

810

868

926

984

1042


425

123

184

246

307

369

430

492

553

615

676

738

799

861

922

984

1045

1107


450

130

195

260

326

391

456

521

586

651

716

781

846

911

977

1042

1107

1172


500

145

217

289

362

434

506

579

651

723

796

868

940

1013

1085

1157

1230

1302


525

152

228

304

380

456

532

608

684

760

836

911

987

1063

1139

1215

1291

1367


550

159

239

318

398

477

557

637

716

796

875

955

1034

1114

1194

1273

1353

1432


575

166

250

333

416

499

582

666

749

832

915

998

1081

1165

1248

1331

1414

1497
 
According to what I can find, a 2.5" pipe will handle the flow, of course, a smooth inside will be used, probably stainless.  My exhaust is 2.5".
 
POLARACO2010-12-12 01:04:02
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Stitcherbob on December 12, 2010, 07:13:59 AM

amazingly, you're not the only one......

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59536.0 (http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59536.0)

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/f19/99897-440-big-block-turbo-info-needed-2.html (http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/f19/99897-440-big-block-turbo-info-needed-2.html)


http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f11/f54/195565-turbo-440-rv.html (http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f11/f54/195565-turbo-440-rv.html)

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l292/musicsmydrug/440top.jpg)

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l292/musicsmydrug/440side.jpg)

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l292/musicsmydrug/440turbo.jpg)


Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: firedome on December 12, 2010, 09:08:02 AM
How about a supercharger. Easier plumbing and more low end power, which
is where you want it on a car like that. Just get one off a Park Ave or
Bonnie SSI.

Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Leaburn Patey on December 12, 2010, 09:18:00 AM
Contact "FEETS" over on the Dock.
Along with his 72 imperial,he has a 65 Belvedere tiwn turbo 440 car.
Maybe he can give us an insight.
 
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 12, 2010, 11:57:23 AM
[/QUOTE]

I know Bob.  I saw this.  But as I understand from what I have been reading, I need to boost through the carb.  Not under it, unless I'm mising something.
 
Rog
I thought about it.  I can turbo for 1/3 the cost and accomplish almost the same thing.  I also have more flexibility in location.
 
Thanks Lea. . .   I'll do that
 
 
POLARACO2010-12-12 17:01:06
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Jason Goldsack on December 12, 2010, 12:04:24 PM


How about using a set-up from a turbo Tran Am?

(http://static.flickr.com/69/153768650_835aad314c_o.jpg)
1965Windsor3612010-12-12 17:11:11
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 12, 2010, 12:15:09 PM
I looked at that. . .   It's configured wrong for me to install it.  Also, I hear it has turbo lag because it's too big.  I want something small.
 
I don't get what he did to that 440.  If you look at the exhaust manifold,  he has a down pipe and has the turbo attached to the exhaust manifold.  I was going to feed all through like a diesel.  Every car I've seen, so far, feeds all the exhaust through the turbo.  He must have some insight on something.  I'll ahve to read the articles on that 440.
 
POLARACO2010-12-12 17:21:26
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 12, 2010, 12:17:03 PM
I wonder if I can flip the exhaust manifold over.  Hey Lea. . .  Check that out for me.
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Jason Goldsack on December 12, 2010, 12:32:18 PM
I was just thinking of the part for the carb.. you would certainly have to upgrade the turbo for the 440...




Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 12, 2010, 12:56:38 PM
(http://image.chevyhiperformance.com/f/9070968+w750+st0/148_0502_turbo_13_z.jpg)




 
 
This is a pretty clever idea.   MMMMMMM   Has tons of possibilities.  That solves Location nad with all that pipe going to the front, you won't need an intercooler.  Lord knows there's tones of room in the back.
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 12, 2010, 01:13:47 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
(http://image.chevyhiperformance.com/f/9070968+w750+st0/148_0502_turbo_13_z.jpg)




 
 

This is the way to have turbo lag to the max. Granted that once the system pressurizes and all that, I am sure the extra length to get back to the engine could be enough to up the boost without heat dissipation, which is why an intercooler is needed above about 7psi.
 
The 440RV is way inefficient. The carb could be moved over to the left in the picture and have more room undermeath. looks like it is restricted a bit, and yes, this design does the turbo lag problem.
 
Steve, can you EFI the engine for fuel management?
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 12, 2010, 01:33:54 PM
I've been reading about guys that went to a Commander 950.  I'm sure it's been improved since my last one 4 years ago. . .
 
I just hate like hell to invest in a carb and rebuilding only to have nightmares.
 
POLARACO2010-12-12 18:41:58
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: firedome on December 12, 2010, 04:26:01 PM
Garrett T-4?





Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 12, 2010, 04:41:46 PM
MMMMMMM
 
That's the problem.  I don't know what these "T's" mean.  And allot of sites don't give enough information in laimans terms for me to understand it.  This new Metric sizing system is not something I ever learned.
 
Thanks Rog, let me go chase that lead down.
 
POLARACO2010-12-12 21:42:15
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 12, 2010, 07:37:59 PM
It's not hard to turbocharge a 440. If a knucklehead like me can do it, any preschooler can. :)

(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs121.snc1/5215_1149255325288_1044745254_439359_3480258_n.jpg)


I ran twins on my 65 Belvedere. It was a little easier to package twins instead of a single in the tight early B engine compartment. I later moved the engine back to get me even more room. The photo above shows the engine after being moved back.

I have stripped that stuff off the hot rod and will be moving it to my 72 Imperial once the hot rod sells.

I get my turbo stuff from Dave at Majestic Turbo in Dallas. I've been dealing with him for more than 10 years. www.dallasturbo.com
There's a good chance that I will slide the turbos under the back of the Imperial to keep the engine compartment as uncluttered as possible.

My turbos are too small for a high power car. Each compressor will handle 500 hp worth of air but the hot sides are a little small. I traded the high horsepower flow for quick response. My car has always been a street car so I didn't care about ultimate performance. It worked beautifully. The turbos would spool by 2600 rpm. I could have 8 psi by 2800 rpm and 17 psi by 3200 rpm. The most I ever put down was 657 hp and 742 tq at the wheels.
The engine at that time was stock with a cheapie Summit rebuild kit, stock 452 heads, a 474/483 cam that I designed, and an 800 Holley. I had rigged a little rubbing alcohol injector that started spraying at 4 psi boost.
After going to the Edelbrock heads, EFI, and big injectors, I never turned the boost back up. I kept it on the 8 psi wastegates.

My turbos are considered hybrids. The compressors are Garret T4 60 trim housings with 60-1 wheels. The turbines are Turbonetics T3 Stage III wheels with Stage III .96 A/R housings. I would consider them the smallest turbos you'd want to run on a 440. My first attempt used smaller turbine housings. The engine would not turn over 4800 rpm on the dyno because of the exhaust restriction. I stepped up two sizes with the .96 housings and it pulls hard to my 6200 rpm limiter. No doubt these housings are maxed out at that rpm. That's perfect because my HP peak is 5700.

I would definitely do things differently for a race car. Something similar to these would be great on a C body.
Run 10 psi on a stock engine with a 3.23 gear and 2800 converter and your New Yorker would easily be a low 12 second car. Best of all, you would enjoy stock street manners, a quieter exhaust, and nobody would know you had 'em.


Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 12, 2010, 07:44:53 PM




Quote from: stitcherbob
amazingly, you're not the only one......

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59536.0 (http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59536.0)

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/f19/99897-440-big-block-turbo-info-needed-2.html (http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/f19/99897-440-big-block-turbo-info-needed-2.html)


http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f11/f54/195565-turbo-440-rv.html (http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f11/f54/195565-turbo-440-rv.html)

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l292/musicsmydrug/440top.jpg)

SKIP THE DRAW THROUGH TURBOS!!!
Pretend you never saw those photos and your life will be much happier.
Those turbo RVs made a little more low end grunt but they will not support higher horsepower. More important, they are a potential bomb under your hood. The fuel drawn through the carb makes a nice volatile mixture. Spin that mix through a 100,000 rpm compressor and now you've got a pressurized volatile mixture looking for a leak. If it gets out and hits the exhaust manifold *poof* goes the engine compartment.

You'll notice that VERY FEW of the 81 Turbo Trans Am cars are turbocharged today. Those 301s were PIGS and a real embarrassment to Pontiac. The 403 BOP engines (6.6 TA) would run circles around them.

Just for clarification, on the RV turbo 440 the driver's side exhaust manifold dumps down normally. That exhaust pipe runs under the engine and into the bottom of the passenger exhaust manifold. The passenger side exits upward into the turbo. Think about that. Everybody ditches the log manifolds because they are a heavy restriction. Those RVs had ALL of the exhaust going through the passenger manifold. Now how well is THAT going to work for you? 1970s engineering at it's laughable peak.

You can not run B/RB manifolds upside down. The "log" part of the manifold that humps up and burns our valve cover gaskets will then hump down and block the spark plug holes. It's physically impossible to mouth them upside down with spark plugs installed.
Forget about trying to mount them right side up but on the wrong sides because the outlet hits the engine mounts and steering box.

I went through many different possibilities when building the hot rod. I'm CHEAP so I tried everything. In the end, I made my own manifolds.
If you turbocharge, do yourself a favor. Skip the fancy external wastegates and get a turbo with the WG built in. It's so much easier to build around and you're not looking for a 9 second car.

feets2010-12-13 00:58:41
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Snotty on December 13, 2010, 10:27:21 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
I was thinking about sticking a turbocharger in the New Yorker.  That ought to get that sucker moving.
 
 
OK, you got me on this one Steve.  Other than a nice gimmick I don't get your intention; that car moves quite well on its own, as most big block Mopars do.
 
Except for racing purposes, I've always had the opinion that turbos on passenger cars existed to make a 4 banger feel like a V-8.  If you have the latter the former is not necessary.
 
JMO, it is your car.... 
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Jason Goldsack on December 13, 2010, 11:08:45 AM
If I had the money.. there would be a turbo on the Windsor... for sure

Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 13, 2010, 02:17:21 PM
[color=#ffcc00 size=7 face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Hello Feets[/color]
[color=#ffcc00 size=7 face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Welcome[/color]
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 13, 2010, 02:49:15 PM
OK!  I see you are using the Edelbrock EFI setups.  I had one of those for this car, but it disappeared.  Let's not talk about it
 
I agree the suck through leaves allot to be desired, especially the safety aspects of it.  The mixture is quite volitle going through thhere.  But the good parts it, well maybe, the air fuel mixture is vaporized into a gas.  That alone is better combustion.
 
You gave me some leads on where to look for turbos.  I'm thinking I might have the exhaust manifold modified and put the turbo right where you see it on that Mo Home unit.  However, I'm not clear about how it's powered.  You are saying the left manifold pressure is driving the turbo?   MMMMMM   Y pipe on the right side and 3" single exhaust.  Unless you think 2 1/2" is enough. . .
 
Now that we're through that part, let me address what the purpose will be.   Snotty sold me this car 8 years ago.  For reasons, I am just getting to it now.  I originally had it slated for the Edlebrock MPI system.  I was one of the first to buy an RB system back then.    My mission is to make this as fuel efficient as possible.  The power I'll be getting is just a bonus.  I'm already going to install a 518 trans.  Moving more air into the system helps.  Once I have this part figured out, I have to think about the best cam for this.  I already built a Torque Monster in Polaraco. 
 
Here's the plan. . . 
Establish a turbo to meet the CFM/HP needs at 8 PSI Max.  Using a small turbo to reduce lag.
decide on a location in the car and determine how much intercooling will be needed.  At 8 PSI, compression temps won't be too bad.
Go to the Holley Commander 950
Head Porting for street
Choose a good cam to match the input
 
The end results should be a real torquey gas mizer that will be a oversized pocket rocket
POLARACO2010-12-13 20:01:21
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 13, 2010, 05:54:22 PM
I am not running an Edelbrock system. My intake is another one of my famous (infamous?) one off creations. It's a Weiand tunnel ram with the top half unbolted and a plenum welded on. the throttle body was originally a Mustang Cobra twin 57 mm piece. I have replaced it with an Accufab 1697 cfm single blade throttle body. The fuel injection system is an ancient Electromotive TEC II distributorless EFI arrangement. There are better systems on the market but this one is very functional and was cost effective.

There is NO reason to not have turbos on a big block. After 10 years of running boost it was really hard to pull them off the car. I had to keep telling myself that it was okay because they were going on the Imperial. The hot rod could knock down 19 mpg and still run off from a friend's 1999 Yamaha YZF-R1. He doesn't appreciate being reminded of that fact. :)

BOTH manifolds must feed the turbo. You can't clog one side with a turbo and let the other side breathe. The motor home turbo has the right manifold exiting to the turbo. The left manifold blows in through the bottom of the right manifold and out the top. they both feed the turbo. The down pipe from the turbo has been removed in those photos.
If you prefer twins they should each be the same size and are normally fed by one on each manifold.
Do not try the diesel turbo tricks here. Compounding turbos is not for a spark ignited engine. Leave that stuff to the compression fired oil burners. I know what those guys are doing but I haven't pushed my Cummins over 27 psi.

Stock style cams tend to work well. The Buick Grand National guys were running deep 9 second passes on the stock camshafts. Even the Chrysler 2.2 turbo guys were bumping 10s without changing cams. Mine is a custom grind because I wanted a turbo specific cam. If you don't want to go to a custom cam feel free to use the stock piece or get a cheapie RV cam.
It does not take an exotic engine to make good power. Compression between 8:1 and 9:1 with a mild cam and stock heads will make good power. Like all engines, the power is in the heads. The more head you have the more power it's going to make assuming the turbos and cam are matched.
With proper intercooling (physical or chemical) it should not be difficult to make 700 hp and maintain a reliable engine. Avoid detonation and your engine should live a long happy life.

Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 13, 2010, 08:06:42 PM
OK Kevin!  Good Info.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
 
My problem with twins is space.  This is a luxury cruiser and I intend to keep it that way, and keep the guy I bought it from Happy too.  (He'll have to buy me a bucket of shrimp to drive it LOL  Private joke)
 
Assuming I stay with a a single turbo,  suppose I could design an elaborate Y-pipe setup, similar to the MoHome you are describing.
 
I'm thinking now, make 2" pipes to a collector, feed the turbo, and then either go to a single 3" exhaust system, or loop back to the existing 2 1/2".  Sorry Snotty, those flowmasters have to go.  I would think it will be less complicated to just go with the single 3". 
 
I'm working a budget here.  It's a long story and most of these guys know I lost a great deal of money in parts on this car.  If I didn't love the damned thing so much. . . . .
 
I know the Commander 950 is a POS, but it is an improvement over a carb.  I'm thinking about going with that and a top hat..  When I did my Polara, I always had this in the back of my head.  I even have places  for the turbos..  That's on an antiquated Dodge ODP1 system.
 
Fuel injection is definitely the way to go with turbos.
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 13, 2010, 08:59:41 PM
This is what I need.
 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Aircraft-Turbocharger-General-Electric-7S-BH4-D3-KC97-/280601018052?pt=Motors_Aviation_Parts_Gear&hash=item41551fbec4 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Aircraft-Turbocharger-General-Electric-7S-BH4-D3-KC97-/280601018052?pt=Motors_Aviation_Parts_Gear&hash=item41551fbec4)
 
 
LOL
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 14, 2010, 03:57:57 AM
Skip the Commander system. I don't think it will work with positive manifold pressure. You need a system that can read a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor.
I want to keep the Imperial a luzury cruiser too. That's why I plan on full length quiet exhaust with the turbos mounted under the car.
Remote mounted turbos will not cause horrible lag time if you size them properly.
 
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 14, 2010, 04:28:08 PM
Feets, I seem to recall a Corvette that was dual turbo'd and they were located in the wheel wells behind the front wheels of the fenders. Steve, this would be a good location, out of the way, and since you aren't talking intercoolers and all that, but finding a couple  to use is not something I am real familiar with dealing with, especially with such large an engine and such low pressure. I did finally find this site: http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/ (http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/) which has a very large selection and all the graphs (there are like 100 turbo numbers and the graphs to go with them), but I am not totally familiar with filling in the proper info to get the proper results. Possibly feets can help us out on this one, and kind of show us what we need to do to turbo big cube engines in big Mopars on a budget.
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 14, 2010, 05:51:01 PM
Be careful with the turbo calculators. They can get you mixed up if you don't know how to rad the charts. They will figure out the cold side of the turbo but the hot side remains a mystery.
Play with that chart and you'll find that a T4 60-1 or maybe a 62-1 compressor wheel will be dead on for a mild 440. That's why I used them and physics hasn't changed. I would lean towards a T4 P-trim turbine if I had to do it again. I'm undecided what size housing to put over it.
There are a variety of turbos that will make boost on a 440 but they won't be efficient.


Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 14, 2010, 07:04:41 PM
I'm not looking for a hugh amount of power, any boost will be an improvement and the power will be a byproduct for what I am looking to do.  It will give that 4600 pounds an edge, but definitely give it more economy. 
 
In the 5.9 I built last spring, I used a high lift, short duration cam.  It's a gasoline diesel now, delivering over 400# of torque, but only a 10 HP increase.  The 413 is 100 more horses at 340 HP stock.  The 5.9 could use a tad more snot, which is horsepower.  I built this with a turbo in the future.  But getting 18 around town is impressive for a 360 in a battle barge.
 
In 1974, there was a turbo option on the 5.9 pickups.  I'd love to find one of those.
 
POLARACO2010-12-15 00:07:45
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 14, 2010, 07:21:22 PM
Again, a setup similar to mine is what you need. It started out life as a stock 440 with a baby cam and a couple turbos. I've added to it since then but the turbos stayed the same. 80% of the time I left the boost at 8 psi. I occasionally played with the higher boost levels. All I did was bleed the wastegates. The turbos didn't change.

Be careful with eBag turbos. There are LOTS of Chinese ripoffs of Garrett and Turbonetics turbos. They've got a bad rap for a reason. Turbos spin at 100,000 rpm and sometimes higher. The last thing you need is some cheap out of balance impeller blade breaking off and getting sucked into your engine.


Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 14, 2010, 08:01:25 PM
The problem I keep seeing with the turbo setup is that for the cubic inches and low psi, a single turbo has difficulty being large enough to get into its power range potential of low rpm and higher pressure, which is why I was thinking about the Cummins unit being a diesel it works more at low rpm than the other units. Using the Commando 950 allows a hood and no carb problems, and the T1 setup of low boost shouldn't affect the pressurizing that a single bar MAP, double bar probably wouldn't be necessary, T1 setups didn't have them, so the system should be able to function properly.  Couple this with the ported head and you should be in good shape, because from past experience of ported head and turbo, a 30psi setup unported worked as well (same lapsed times in the quarter) as 20psi ported.
 
My main thought and unknowing is, what turbo is going to get the volume necessary for 413 cubic inches at low rpm and single turbo? It's that 413 cubic inches problem I have a problem with. Plenty of exhaust gas to make it spin, it is the intake compressor side I don't know about (thus the Cummins, but it is of higher compression, thus higher exhaust pressure on that side to start with, so maybe I am thinking of that wrong to start with). 
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: firedome on December 15, 2010, 04:33:29 AM

Steve, you can get Garrett T-4s off Saab Turbos in a junkyard, can use
one for each side.  They're bulletproof, we use Saabs for
autocross and hillclimbs. A tweaked Saab Turbo 16valve dohc is far more efficient as
an air pump than any Mopar block so you should get more than enough per
bank. You want ZERO exhaust restriction with a Turbo, we now run 3"
open pipe with a 2.1L engine on the '84 900T  (engine now out
getting a new bottom end and trans this winter) and '99 9-3 chipped and
modded Turbo. The "boys" (24 and 29) drive, my reactions are now too
slow, they have to be lightning quick for 'cross. FWD is a challenge
but our Saabs are competitive because of power and tires.  If you
want to ditch carbs, MegaSquirt programmable FI is more state of the
art, Edelbrock's is primitive in comparison... my son, Physicist and
racer, is putting it in the car he's building. 
firedome2010-12-15 09:46:38
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 15, 2010, 05:31:24 AM
You guys need to stop now before someone wastes money on your ideas.
 
Saab turbos are too small for the 440. You would need 3 or 4 of them to even get things going. Your son the physicist needs to study thermodynamics a little better if he thinks those turds will spool a 7.2 liter engine. While being perfect for a 2.1 liter engine, two of them would be okay on a 273 and a bit small for a 318.  Forget a 440. My original turbine housings will out flow ANY Saab 4 cylinder turbo. They still choked the engine at 4800 rpm. That's a FACT. The engine would not turn more than 4800 rpm because the turbos ran out of flow and became a potato in the tailpipe.
 
Dana, drop the Commander. I don't mean to sound rude but you obviously aren't familiar with EFI. A 1 bar MAP sensor will not read over atmospheric pressure. It is used to determine the amount of vacuum in the engine. The sensor has no ability to read as little as 1 psi boost. 4 psi boost can lead to detonation and shattered pistons. 8 psi with no additional fueling will not be possible. A 2 bar MAP is MINIMUM for a turbocharged engine. Chrysler 2.2 T1 engines had 2 bar MAP sensors. That's why they'd get into "boost cut" if you hit 15 psi. If you're stuck on a factory style intake get a boost prepped carb or build one yourself. Do not guess at EFI until you know exactly how they work.
The Cummins turbo will not work properly. It doesn't matter what the rpm of the original application was. What matters is air flow and density. You can get away with a couple HX35 turbos on small blocks but they can't handle the volume of air demanded by a 440. Go play with those charts listed on page 2. Anytime the air flow gets outside the lines on those charts bad things happen. The turbo will hit surge and stop moving air. I've done that when I blew a boost line off a wastegate and one of my turbos tried to feed my 440 a whopping 22 psi boost. The air got REALLY hot then *poof* air stoped moving. Pressure waves are generated that stop air movement. Not only is that good for cylinders approaching the temperature of the sun but it also kills performance. As in the car quits moving.
 
I don't intend to be a kill joy or a horse's ass. I was asked to join the forum because of this topic. I have been playing with turbo cars since 1991. That includes 2.2 turbos, 5.9 Cummins, blow through carbed engines, and fuel injected turbo engines. I'm a hobbiest that has very little money to play with. Everything I do has to be researched and debugged as much as possible before I can drop a dime on it because I can't afford to waste that dime.
I've stated what works. While I can certainly appreciate digging around and trying to find a way to save money and make it work, I've given you the minimums. Please learn from my mistakes.
I will do everything I can to help you guys. It's in my nature. In fact, if you're near DFW I'll help put it together. I've got a machine shop at home and make my own parts where possible.
 
 
feets2010-12-15 10:41:00
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 15, 2010, 06:47:18 AM
[/QUOTE]





 
Yeah
 
Looking at some Audi used ones.  Plenty of those around
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 15, 2010, 07:37:43 AM
I doubt the Audi turbos will be big enough to use in pairs. You also need to get your hands on some compressor maps to see how they fit the application.
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: firedome on December 15, 2010, 07:39:55 AM

And we've been tweaking/racing Turbos since 1979 with the first 900
Turbo we had. Nice try, but actually the relevant field for determining
flow efficiency is Fluid Dynamics. Air is a fluid.  Thermodynamics
is useful for calculating heat retention, heat loss and rejection, and
overall thermal efficiency. Consider Newton's 1st law, and you'd use an
air cooled engine.  All this stuff is  required, with 6 yrs
of advanced math,
for a Post-doc in Particle Physics.  However, if you'd take time
to read carefully, I was referring to knowledge of FI. Sorry, but
Edelbrock is Low Tech. Design, build and program custom EFI chips?
fairly simple stuff compared  to running the worlds' biggest
Relativistic Heavy Ion Supercollider (RHISC) at Brookhaven Labs.
MegaSquirt is a highly flexible readily available and very effective
systme for those who don't care to roll their own. Can a 440 lump turn
10,000+ rpm?  What's it's instrumented BMEP? It's not the liters,
and not just  how much air it can pump, but where you want the
power and everything must be integrated.  I believe calculations
would show a  properly designed
dual T-4 low pressure system would handle what Steve wants 
to do. Steve's not making a drag car, he's  looking for a bit
extra low end and he won't NEED a huge amount of blow. Scientists don't
guess, they use sensors and instruments, collect the data,  and
the math tells you what to do.  However no sense in all that, we've got the world expert here now!




firedome2010-12-15 12:53:35
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 15, 2010, 09:33:59 AM
I guess you're the world expert? You do know that heat helps drive turbos too, right? There's energy in heat (obviously). Conversely, there is a loss of horsepower with heat. When you start cooking the air you breathe things get ugly. True, knowledge of fluid dynamics would be just as handy.
You can run all the theoretical BS you want. Read all your textbooks and play with all the nifty toys. You still need to know what you're dealing with in the real world. I know people that are packing MENSA level IQs but couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the directions were on the bottom.
Even my good friend who ran nuclear power plants and their cooling systems came to me to help figure out how to cool down his 65 Coronet. We sat down and worked that stuff out. Sometimes real world experience trumps all the world's book knowledge.


Now, please show me a compressor map for the Saab T4 turbos.
 
Where's all this Edelbrock stuff coming from? Who's running Edelbrock stuff? I've got Edelbrock heads and a couple old carbs in my garage but that's it. If you're referring to my EFI, it's an outdated but rather effective Electomotive TEC II with the ability to tune on the fly with the laptop. It'll handle 12,000 rpm but I'm not interested in building anything that will turn that number.
Megasquirt is a fairly attractive system. Since I haven't messed with it I can't comment.
 
Steve isn't making a drag car. Neither am I. The hot rod is about as low as you're going to go with a turbo 440. 8 psi on a stock engine in a street car. Does that sound familiar? Gee, Steve wants something just like that. I've been running one since 2001. I've added heads and EFI as time went by but the bottom end is still there.
 
If you've been running turbo engines since 1979 then you should know that getting too small of a turbine will choke an engine.  
What size turbines are on the Saab units? Do yo agree that a turbine that will be responsive on a factory production 2.1 liter engine will be too small to handle the flow from a 3.6 liter engine with a similar rpm range and somewhat lower BMEP? It would spool instantly then become a cork around 4000 rpm. The turbine speeds would probably be in excess of 150,000 rpm and the compressor would be way out of it's range. Two of them will work on a very small V8 but simply can't handle the flow of a stock 440. Please prove this statement wrong. The 440 is not as efficient as the 2.1. That means it's going to be moving more air to make the same power. 
My T4/T3 hybrids work fine with a 440. They were designed exactly for that purpose. They are the absolute minimum for a 440 with a 5500 rpm redline. Anything that flows less on the hot side will choke the engine. I found that out the hard way.
 
I'm not the world expert. However, unlike you guys I have real world experience with the EXACT scenario Steve wants.
I don't mind discussing these things but there's no reason for pounding your chest or getting nasty. I was told that kind of activity didn't happen over here.
 
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Snotty on December 15, 2010, 09:51:57 AM
Quote from: feets
I don't mind discussing these things but there's no reason for pounding your chest or getting nasty. I was told that kind of activity didn't happen over here.
 
For the most part you heard correctly, but every now and then....
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 15, 2010, 10:27:37 AM
Feets, thanks for answering my question and why the Cummins wouldn't work, even though I did give one reason why I thought it wouldn't work. Size and volume of air, even at low pressure, is the main problem with the 440. Yeah, a single turbo works fine for a 2.4 Turbo, but even at half the pressure, yeah, it will still choke the engine. I see that a MINIMUM sized engine to find used turbos off of would be essentially a 3.6, and then use two of them, not too many of those around, possibly the new Ford, but it is already a dual turbo setup to work, so then you would need four of them, and we are right back where we started, four turbos to feed the engine to start with. Even with the T4/T3, you are still talking twins, right? And thanks for correcting the Commando and T1 turbo setup MAP bar setup, thought it was a one bar, not a two bar to start with.
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 15, 2010, 11:46:48 AM
The T4/T3 hybrids I use are twins. To go single you'd need something the size of a T76 or S400. Getting the turbine housing correct on those is pretty easy but it's hard to find a compressor wheel that will work with the low horsepower levels we're discussing. Most of those turbos are used on higher horsepower cars and they're not happy passing lower volumes of air. feets2010-12-15 16:47:10
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 15, 2010, 11:49:54 AM
Quote from: firedome
How about a supercharger. Easier plumbing and more low end power, which is where you want it on a car like that. Just get one off a Park Ave or Bonnie SSI.
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
 
Twin superchargers?
 
One of those blowers would probably be a restriction on a 440 at 5000 rpm.
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 15, 2010, 12:23:29 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif)

Easy boys. . . .  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
I have a BSEE, but the seat has made more sense than the pencil in allot of cases. . .  That's why I have forgotton almost all the therories I learned 40+ years ago in school.  KISS seems to be the most useful therory I have ever learned.
 
I understand the thermodynamics. . .  The understanding of them comes in handy.  And as in Fluid Power, restriction, such as intercoolers can hurt me too. 
 
I have been thinking about mounting the turbo similar as the Mo Home unit, exhaust plumbing it, and running the air plunbing through the wheel wells as there is plenty of room in there to work with.  I can go over the right tire, into the front for an intercooler, then out and over the right wheel to a bonnet on the carb, injection system, whatever.
 
 
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 15, 2010, 12:43:09 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif)

Easy boys. . . .  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
 
DOG PILE ON THE ADMIN!!! Let's get 'im boys!
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley12.gif)
 
But seriously now, you've got plenty of room to work with. I've been looking under the hood of the Imperial. With all the stuff it's got I'll have a fun time running twins up there without disturbing things.
Think about moving the battery to the trunk, eliminating the vapor canister (if equipped) and run twins up front. You can see that I can my driver's side exhaust over the turbo and then down so it wouldn't interfere with the engine accessories. You can run the boost down the front and into an intercooler if you like. At 8 psi there won't be much of a gain but you'll be addicted to boost and turn it up later. We all fall into that trap.
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 15, 2010, 02:08:40 PM
Quote from: feets
  
 
DOG PILE ON THE ADMIN!!! Let's get 'im boys!
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley12.gif)
 
They've tried already.  Get in line (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
Remember, there is less room in a 62 because it is up to 6" narrower than the Fusies.  Not to mention, serviceability.  I'm getting too old to be crawling under these things to change spark plugs anymore.  Running the air plumbing through the fender wells cleans up the clutter, but states "TURBO" when people look at it.  I could forego the intercooler and just run a straight pipe around to the other side.  Between the breeze in the fender well and the air pushing through the front, the air will be nice and cool.  I also need to put my intake out there to get the coldest air I can.  Made a big difference on Polaraco.
 
Honestly, 2 turbos are going to be too expensive for me.  A T7 is $1500 while the two audi turbos are far less.  But you are right, they could be too small, but they are T4's as well.  It looks like a left and right turbo with wastegates.  I believe they came off an Audi 1.8.  Since I only want them to be useful up to 3500 RPM,
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 15, 2010, 02:18:51 PM


Now ya went and done it! You made me start thinking. That's usually dangerous.
When I got home from work I grabbed my junk turbo and popped the hood on the Imperial. Here's a quickie idea on the placement of twins. If you want to do a single, just work with the passenger side.
Keep in mind I haven't got a clue what year your NYer is. If it's a Fusey, you're golden. If not, see if you can adapt these ideas.

The passenger front is the easiest place to stuff a turbo, especially if you don't have a smog pump. The alternator sits fairly high. You can route a manifold around or under it. That makes for an easy exhaust run to a turbo. The exhaust off the turbo can run back beside the engine mount. It will be under the spark plugs and out of the way. Making a quick dip around the torsion bar leaves you under the car and home free. A mechanical fuel pump would be in the way but that's not a major concern. You should really change to an electric fuel pump and boost referenced regulator, especially with EFI.
Here's a quick and dirty photo:

(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1224.snc4/155640_177328455619560_100000272212256_558104_3035161_n.jpg)

Moving to the driver's side, the space really opens up if you move the battery to the trunk. That leaves a perfect place to plop a turbo. There's very little to get in the way.
Here's that side's quick and dirty pic:

(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1337.snc4/162943_177328442286228_100000272212256_558103_5137264_n.jpg)

The down pipe out of the turbine would go up and over the exhaust
manifold and snake it's way under the car. It will clear the steering
stuff and the spark plugs. Note that I had to cut the inner fender to fit the turbo. That won't be necessary on a C-body.

(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs598.ash2/155020_177331418952597_100000272212256_558122_4587388_n.jpg)

In the above image, please note the VERY POOR placement of the wastegate. Space is at a premium in that car. If I moved the WG forward for a nice smooth air flow the hood and WG would hit. If I laid the WG to one side or the other I would not be able to reach the bolts on the WG, turbo, or both. That's why I strongly suggest internal wastegates for moderate power setups. You're making compromises so the little bit of power you might lose will never be felt.

My original setup was much better for flow but would not fit once I moved the engine back.

(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1378.snc4/165046_177332652285807_100000272212256_558123_6099983_n.jpg)

Back to the subject...
If you plan on running a single, take the driver's side exhaust forward, across the bottom of the engine compartment, and up into the turbo.

On a Fusey and a Slab you have openings between the fender liners and radiator support. That gives you a perfect place for air filters and to run the pipes out of the compressors. You can merge them together out front either for an intercooler or the single pipe headed to the carb/throttle body. I opened an existing hole in the core support for the intake pipe. On the Imperial I will have room to go around it.

If you don't have the evap canister, vacuum reservoirs, or A/C the install gets even easier.

Does any of that look like it would work on your car?
feets2010-12-15 19:33:25
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 15, 2010, 03:12:11 PM
Nope
 
My turbo is going to have to be higher and forward more.  My heater box is twice as big as yours and the fire wall is straighter.
 
See if these help you.  This is a 300H, but it's still an RB and the space is almost the same.
http://www.moparfins.com/Chrysler/62/1962_300H_Convertible/1962_Chrysler_300H_Engine_Right.htm (http://www.moparfins.com/Chrysler/62/1962_300H_Convertible/1962_Chrysler_300H_Engine_Right.htm)
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Stitcherbob on December 15, 2010, 03:19:14 PM
Steve....do yourself a favor and forget the turbos....just a little squirt of nitrous when you need it for passing and the 62 will giddy-up just fine......no need to spend half the national deficit on that car when the other projects need to be budgeted too ..... (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley6.gif)


and shame on you guys for encouraging him!

(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)

and where the heck is the Voice of Reason , Stanley lately????? You're dropping the ball man!   He's probably >>>>>>(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley24.gif)







Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 15, 2010, 03:23:26 PM

A 62? Now ya went and screwed it up. Silly Admin!

I had my plumbing running up front. If I put a little effort into it the pipe would not have been visible form in front of the car. Since I wasn't concerned with appearance I made it as easy as possible.

Talk to a local turbo shop. Find out if they have junk parts (cracked housings and such) that you can grab for free or close to it. You can stick it everywhere and see what works best.

Again, I will strongly advise you to avoid the Audi turbos. You may only want them active to 3500 rpm but keep in mind that the engine will never spin faster than that with a load. On the dyno my larger turbos choked the engine to 4900 rpm. With the throttle flat on the floor the engine couldn't make any more rpm. The turbos were that restrictive. Your engine won't even make it that far.

If you shop around you can sometimes pay less for twins than for a large single. A pair of old Grand National turbos would be great.

The remote mount would certainly clean things up for you. Run the exhaust back to a single or twins under the back of the car. You would need to run tubing back to the engine and an oil return pump.

feets2010-12-15 20:38:33
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: firedome on December 15, 2010, 04:02:28 PM



I agree with Bawb. But for what you want I still maintain a
supercharger makes more sense, you are talking maximizing performance
at 1000-4000 rpms, not 5500+. TWIN T-4s would do an excellent job as
well, if you want to turbo, and the relevant math can prove it.



Every aspect of turbo and engine performance can be quantified,
measured, calculated and extrapolated. Funny how those who are unable
to understand it, or are unwilling to do so, are the first to discount
the science and the value of using it. Seat of the pants my azz.... the
typical NASCAR shop these days looks more like a NASA lab, because they
are smart enough to employ empirical data to get the performance they want.


firedome2010-12-15 21:06:25
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Jason Goldsack on December 15, 2010, 04:23:04 PM
This makes for great reading.. LOL...

People trying to show that they are smarter than each other is really entertaining..


Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 15, 2010, 06:04:33 PM


Quote from: firedome


I agree with Bawb. But for what you want I still maintain a
supercharger makes more sense, you are talking maximizing performance
at 1000-4000 rpms, not 5500+. TWIN T-4s would do an excellent job as
well, if you want to turbo, and the relevant math can prove it.



Every aspect of turbo and engine performance can be quantified,
measured, calculated and extrapolated. Funny how those who are unable
to understand it, or are unwilling to do so, are the first to discount
the science and the value of using it. Seat of the pants my azz.... the
typical NASCAR shop these days looks more like a NASA lab, because they
are smart enough to employ empirical data to get the performance they want.




pssst..... I'm running T4 turbos. Didja miss that?

There are lotsa different sizes of T4 turbos. The little guys on Saabs won't flow enough. If they did, the 2.1 liter engine wouldn't spool them until a really high rpm.
I still say a T4 60-1 compressor with a P-trim turbine wheel would do it. I'm just not sure about the turbine housing.
My Turbonetics T3 Stage III .96 A/R housing and Stage III wheel will flow more than a typical small T4.

Doing a little digging, I found that the
B205R and B235L/R use Mitsubishi TD04HL-15T-5.

Here's a compressor map I found:

(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/2111/td0415gmediumks1.jpg)

That's a high speed compressor. How small is the turbine housing to get the speeds that high with a small engine and not present excessive lag?
feets2010-12-15 23:06:35
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 15, 2010, 08:47:10 PM
Ey Yi Yi Yi Yi  What have I done?!? (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)
 
Hell I could do propane and water injection!
 
Bob. . None of that stuff is low maint.  I want something that is self sustaining
 
POLARACO2010-12-16 01:52:02
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 15, 2010, 09:03:54 PM
How about these?
 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270677057036&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270677057036&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)
 
 
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Jason Goldsack on December 16, 2010, 03:52:05 AM
How about  this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HONDA-VORTEX-ELECTRIC-SUPERCHARGER-AIR-INDUCTION-KIT-/250742418527?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a6169ac5f).. LOL



Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 16, 2010, 06:09:02 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
How about these?
 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270677057036&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270677057036&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)
 
 
So close! If the compressor was a T4 60 it would be perfect. The T3 is too small and you'd send it into surge.
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 16, 2010, 07:05:29 AM
Model: T3/T4, 60 trim 0.60 a/r FORD type compressor with hi flow, twin scroll, P trim turbines
 
 
But  But  But That's what you told me to find. . . .  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif)
 
What am i missing?  Not sure what they are now.  I see references to T3 and T4
 
POLARACO2010-12-16 12:07:01
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 16, 2010, 08:21:50 AM
Those are T3/T4. You need T4/T3. Confused yet?
The T3 and T4 turbos are mix-n-match things because they physically bolt together. You have to think of turbos as two different parts. The compressor is going to feed air to the engine. The turbine has to pass all the exhaust from the engine and use it to drive the compressor.
 

You need a T4 compressor and a BIG T3 turbine or a T4 P-trim turbine.
That set is backwards. They have T3 compressors and a T4 turbines.
If you're going to hide them out back you can use a smaller turbine. The gasses will be much cooler and require less room to work. The compressor will need to be the same size as one mounted up front. In fact, if we had any info on the turbines of the infamous Saab turbos you might be able to get away with stuffing a pair of them under the car by upgrading the compressor side. It depends on how small the turbines really are. feets2010-12-16 13:25:51
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 16, 2010, 11:28:37 AM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley11.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif)
 
I was planning on both in the back if I had to go that route, which is probable.
 
When you say surging, are you saying from too much air?   Would waste gates help solve that?
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 16, 2010, 12:12:58 PM
Surging means the compressor is trying to move too much air. It actually stacks up in the blades and can't get out. That means air stops moving entirely. Nothing comes out. The engine stalls momentarily. As soon as that happens, the air driving the turbo stops. Pretty basic there. No air in = no air out. The engine cutting out drops the compressor speed and it will start moving air again. It happens pretty quickly.
Look at the chart above. The vertical part of the chart is how thick the air is. The horizontal line is the volume of the air moving. The line on the left of the bubble is where the compressor will surge. The other lines are where the turbo is rated for efficiency. That little bubble in the middle is it's happy place. That's where you want to be. The farther you get from that island, the hotter the air gets. Once you're off the scale, you're making more heat than boost. That's detonation city. An engine doesn't like breathing 200+ degree air.
 
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 16, 2010, 01:34:56 PM
So waste gates are out Huh?
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 16, 2010, 05:29:50 PM
Wastegates are definitely in! You need them on a gasoline engine.
Without the WG the turbo will continue accelerating until one of three things happen:

1) The turbine wheel matches speed with the exhaust velocity coming through the turbine housing. Very unlikely.
2) The compressor stalls and air stops moving through the turbo. This does happen in the real world.
3) You boost your engine into oblivion and end up with 600 pounds of scrap metal between your fenders. Most likely (and most expensive) outcome.

If you try to use a WG to bypass a small turbine housing you risk losing control of the turbo. In this situation it's possible to outflow the wastegate and not have enough reserve capacity to regulate turbine speed. That leads you right back to the three consequences above.

Some diesels do not have wastegates. My 92 D250 is a fine example. However, you're now talking about compression fired oil burners and not spark ignited gasoline engines. Getting into that will just end up confusing some folks so let's not go there.

Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 16, 2010, 05:42:49 PM
Heh
 
I got the diesels down.  That's probably why I am having so much difficulty with the gas.
 
When I was asking about the waste gates, I meant on those bargan basement turbos I am looking at.  It says 4ord V8, but does that mean PowerJoke or a treeoh2????
 
If they are for gas, I am wondering if a gate will solve the problem on them.  But it appears you thought about that.  I knew I had to have a gate, I won't run a Dizzy without one either.  But today it's VGT's.  I actually envy you and Brian.  You have good engines.  I have a 6.7 with all this Horse dung on it.  Well, lets just say it looks like it's there.  I am pushing 26 MPG out of it though
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 16, 2010, 06:02:21 PM
Those compressors came off Ford 2.3 liter 4 cylinders. They were used in T-bird Turbocoupes and the Merkur XR4Ti. They were VERY hard to find in the junkyards because the small block guys snatched them up. They were near perfect for a twin turbo 302. The original turbine housings were a T3 .69 A/R for the automatic transmission cars and .96 for the manual transmissions.
Years ago, I was keeping tabs on a web page where someone stuck a pair of them on a 460 in a Fairmont. The car made 700+ ft/lbs below 3000 rpm and then got strangled by the tiny exhaust around 4200 rpm. The air temperatures had to be insane. He pulled them for a larger pair of turbos.
I had a couple of them several years ago but realized they would never work on the 440. I sold them to a friend for his small block. That project never got off the ground.

One idea would be to call a local turbo shop or Mike a dallasturbo.com and see what he would charge to install 60-1 wheels and the matching compressor housings on those turbos.

I've tried to explain stuff in simple terms because some folks reading these posts may not be as familiar with turbos and the big fancy words that go with them.

Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 16, 2010, 06:23:50 PM
I found this injection system.  Thanks AJ
 
http://www.professional-products.com/EFI_3.php (http://www.professional-products.com/EFI_3.php)  This one claims to work with positive manifold pressure.  It looks pretty good
 
Local Turbo shop????  hahahahahahahah hehehehehehehehehe hohohohohohohhohho
 
I know more than they do.  AND! it has more then 4 cylinders
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 17, 2010, 09:35:21 AM
 
How about this beast?


 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GODSPEED-T3-60-1-Turbo-Charger-550HP-BLAZER-C4-CAVALIER-/190480349858?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c59837aa2 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GODSPEED-T3-60-1-Turbo-Charger-550HP-BLAZER-C4-CAVALIER-/190480349858?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c59837aa2)
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 17, 2010, 09:43:03 AM
Cool. I didn't know the professional Products system would handle boost. That's nice but it will be limited by the 62 lb injectors. There should be more than enough fuel for what you want.
When I said local turbo shop, I meant turbo rebuilder. Forget the "tuners" and similar guys. If there are big diesel trucks in your area there will be a turbo builder. Their sole business will likely be rebuilding turbos.
 
The turbo you listed is still a T3 turbo. It's got a big wheel in it but the housing is too small.
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 17, 2010, 11:34:59 AM
The Professional has several different sizes.  I think the next ones are 75 pound.  I am pretty sure there is bigger one after that
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 17, 2010, 05:31:25 PM
This may sound crazy, but what about 2 of these?
 
it's well in the flow range, he claims it will deliver 3 PSI at full load.  It's not 8 PSI, but it's cheap and anything would be an improvement. . . .
 
No I haven't been drinking
 
Yet  LOL
 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ELECTRIC-SUPERCHARGER-TURBOCHARGER-TURBO-COMPLETE-NEW-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3cb3753f66QQitemZ260708843366QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ELECTRIC-SUPERCHARGER-TURBOCHARGER-TURBO-COMPLETE-NEW-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3cb3753f66QQitemZ260708843366QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)
 
I looked at Polaraco and have a new delemma.  There is no room to work on the driverside unless I come up from behind
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 17, 2010, 06:47:23 PM
That little electric thing is adorable! For the cost of those you can get real turbos. 
He says it will flow 435 cfm but at what pressure? Hint: an electric fan will require LOTS of amperage to compress air and 4.6 amps isn't going to cut it!

Air is unlike the solids and liquids we're used to. Air has variable density. A 5 gallon air tank will hold (surprise!) 5 gallons of air. It will hold 5 gallons at 5 psi. It will also hold 5 gallons at 50 psi. The mass just increased by a factor of 10 but the volume didn't increase. It's still only 5 gallons.
Be careful when talking about desired boost pressure. Boost is actually caused by a restriction in the air flow. That turbo (or supercharger) is slinging air so fast the engine can't take it all.
It's like three guys shoveling dirt into a hole while you're trying to shovel it out. That hole is going to fill up with dirt. When it overflows, you've got a mound of dirt.
The engine fills up with air. The turbo keeps packing it in. There's no other way out so the air gets thicker. Pressure builds. That goes on until the wastegate opens and puts a limit on how fast that turbo spins.


Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 17, 2010, 07:22:57 PM
I've been going back and forth with him. . . .  I don't think he knows if that's 3 PSI at full flow or not.  That could be 3 dead end.  They draw 4.6 amps and spin at 6600 RPM. It sounds like he is using a stepper motor because of the high speed and current draw.  BUT!  he is using a Garret housing and impeller which tells me there is little hydraulic slip.  But servo motors typically are low brake HP and torque.
 
POLARACO2010-12-18 00:24:41
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 17, 2010, 07:57:12 PM
He's got a great gimmick. I bet it's still no more useful than the plastic fan thingies.

To compress that kind of air you're going to need horsepower. I don't think 40 amps would cut it, much less 4.6 amps. The more you compress air the harder it gets .

A typical turbo will have 2 to 3 times more pressure in the exhaust manifold than the intake. It's that pressure that does the work. The combustion cycle keeps powering those pistons to pump out the exhaust.
Now, how much power do you think that backpressure equals? It's a bunch more than what you're going to get out of a 12 volt motor with 14 gauge wires.

Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Bill on December 18, 2010, 01:56:33 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
 
How about this beast?


 


 
Like this boss;
 
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/pts/2114349127.html (http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/pts/2114349127.html)
 
 
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 18, 2010, 10:06:45 AM
That looks pretty good. 

Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Bill on December 18, 2010, 03:37:13 PM
What I don't quite follow for the turbo setup is the oil pressure and return side of things.  Especially the remote turbo.  
 
You know what I've thought about for a down stream turbo would be to install after a catalytic convertor.  Since this should generate additional heat down the stream, it would seem to me the turbo could benefit from that heat as the exhaust gases would again be expanded rather than cooled and condensed. 
 
czervika2010-12-18 20:38:02
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 18, 2010, 03:53:44 PM
You have to remember, a Turbo is spinning very fast.  The oil lubs the ball bearings and cools them at the same time.  That's why on a Diesel, you're not supposed to shut down with a turbo temp over 300*F.  The oil carbon can crystalize in the bearings and kill them.  Same principle here.
 
I would think the cooler the gas, the tighter the molecules, the easier it will turn the turbo.
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 18, 2010, 03:59:46 PM
I sent the guy an offer
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 18, 2010, 06:33:15 PM
Maybe he'll take it. Then you can find a mate for it somewhere.

As for oiling a turbo, it's pretty basic. They don't need much. In fact, I've got a pair of the factory oil restrictors from Mazda RX-7s in my lines. They look almost like jets for a Holley carburetor.
The turbos will spin anywhere from 60,000 to 150,000 rpm depending on the size and application. That's way too fast for an axle type seal. It would put too much drag on the turbine shaft and the heat would melt it anyway. Instead, turbos have a simple little slinger type seal on each end of the shaft. It's essentially a little disc on pushed really close to the edge of the housing. That thing spins so fast that any oil contacting it is flung across the housing before it can sneak by. That high speed rotation whips it into a lather resembling funky colored shaving cream. It then drains out of the housing by gravity. That drain has to be at least 1/2" in diameter and run downhill to the engine or a tank.
If you cram oil in the turbo faster than it can drain or if the drain is not big or steep enough to get the oil out, the oil fills the center housing. When that happens the oil will get around those slingers and the engine smokes like a Cheech and Chong movie.
For remote mount turbos or any turbo that can't drain back to the engine you use a pump to return the oil to a reservoir or the engine. Oil can be supplied by a stand alone system or the engine oil pump. Turbos use so little oil the engine will never know the difference. If you do have a remote reservoir being fed with engine oil be sure to add enough oil keep that system and the crank case full.


Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 18, 2010, 06:50:24 PM
Hey Kev
 
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/i.html?LH_Auction=1&_trkparms=65%253A1%257C39%253A1&rt=nc&_nkw=1962+Chrysler&_ipg=&_sticky=1&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_sop=10&_sc=1 (http://motors.shop.ebay.com/i.html?LH_Auction=1&_trkparms=65%253A1%257C39%253A1&rt=nc&_nkw=1962+Chrysler&_ipg=&_sticky=1&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_sop=10&_sc=1)
 
Pick one.  There's 2 pages.  The bottom of the first page has several.  My search was for 62 Chrysler.  Eliminated the buy-it-now, and went to newly listed
 
I offered that guy $200 for that turbo
 
POLARACO2010-12-18 23:57:00
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 18, 2010, 07:45:49 PM
You can use the one on CL. The turbine isn't too big. It might be a little slow to come up as a remote mount. If it does, swap the turbine housing with something smaller.
You can play mix-n-match with turbos all day long if it stays in the same turbo family.

As for the Godspeed stuff on eBag? I'm kinda leery about those. I get the feeling they're the Chinese knock-offs. Quality is a crap shoot. They're cheap. Maybe a little too cheap.


Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Bill on December 19, 2010, 02:34:21 AM
Thanks Boss.
 
Feets,
 
Thanks for the info I was wondering if a complete stand alone system could work, that's answered.   What I don't understand is where to pull oil from if I use the vehicles oil system?  Also where's the best place to return oil to?  When I did the knock off t-bird turbo coupe back in 95 I dropped in to the pan just below the rail.  To me it always seemed a bit simplistic.
 
 
 
Quote from: POLARACO
 
 
czervika2010-12-19 08:11:37
Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Guests on December 19, 2010, 04:52:52 AM
Heat does help drive the turbo. Once you move the turbo away from the engine you need to drop down on the turbine housing to increase the velocity of the exhaust through the turbine.

As for the oil, I run a 440. It has two ports oil pressure ports at the rear of the engine. The oil sending unit screws into one of them. I put a T fitting into the port and ran lines to the turbos.
My turbos were high enough to drain back into the pan. I punched through the side of the pan's sump with a bulkhead fitting and ran driver's side drain to it. Due to exhaust routing, the passenger side was different. I welded a 1/2 tube poking out of the front corner of the pan at a slightly upward angle. A simple 1/2" press on hose was clamped between it and the turbo outlet.
Be sure the return is above the oil level in the pan.


Title: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
Post by: Steve on December 19, 2010, 06:39:03 AM
They're a crap shoot, I know.
 
Some of that chinese stuff is pretty good, and I would prefer a US made.  But they fill a budget nitch since I have to buy 2 of them.
 
I still have a pricey install to deal with