MoparFins

Techical Discussions => Tech- - Engine => Topic started by: Steve on November 09, 2010, 06:43:19 AM

Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Steve on November 09, 2010, 06:43:19 AM
I have a set of 452 heads form a 76 400, I was thinking of working.  I was thinking of putting these on a 62 413.  The stock head is open chamber and the 452 heads are closed chamber.  The stock compression ratio on the 413 is 10:1.
 
What would happen if I put the closed chamber heads on the 413?  I've heard it done on 440's with success.
 
I need to check the bore sizes and valve sizes yet
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Snotty on November 09, 2010, 08:20:37 AM
I was told the '62 413 had closed-chambered heads.  That's why I was advised against using the set of 906s that I have.





 
??
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Steve on November 09, 2010, 09:13:39 AM
They are, but a different design.  These have the loop in between the valves while the 413 are straight across
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Stan Paralikis on November 09, 2010, 11:37:30 AM
Put in hardened seats and you're good to go.  make sure you use tapered seat plugs instead of the reg. plugs.  
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Jason Goldsack on November 09, 2010, 12:06:16 PM

452's are open chamber.... putting the 452's on the 413 would lower the compression but gain you the larger exhaust valve..

The 413 would have came with closed chamber heads from the factory...



1965Windsor3612010-11-09 17:07:34
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Steve on November 09, 2010, 12:20:40 PM
I don't know what the CC rating is on these heads. .. . But the closed part is larger than the ones on the 413.  I haven't done the valve size checking yet.  I don't know if I can find that dimension.  Hellooooo Summit
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Jason Goldsack on November 09, 2010, 12:51:37 PM
The closed chamber heads on the 413 would be much like the 516's that came on my 361.

The 452 I think has chambers around 85 CC versus the closed chamber with 73 cc.. if I remember correctly.


Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Steve on November 09, 2010, 12:56:46 PM
If that's the case, then a slightly lower ratio may work to my advantage.  With todays gas, that might be a blessing in disguise.  But the larger exhaust valves would offset that in performance, but what about MPG?
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Scott on November 09, 2010, 01:14:49 PM
I'm running 452's on my '65 383.  Compression is lower but as Steve pointed out, you almost have to with today's gas; especially the stuff we get here in So Cal.  With the right cam selection, low compression motors can run almost as strong as a high compression counterpart.  I'd run the 452's.
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Tom Dawson on November 09, 2010, 01:36:03 PM

[/QUOTE]


452's already have the hardened seat in them


Tom

Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Steve on November 09, 2010, 01:47:39 PM
I did a bit of research.  The same valves are used from the 400 to the 440.  Seems to includ all the years. exhause is 1.73 and the intake is 2.08".  The same valve is used in in the 63 Hemi as well.  seems to be 63 only.
 
That kind of blew my logic.  But I do get hardened seats.  If I use these heads, the flow better and I do get the seats.  Going from 85 to 73 will probably take me from 10:1 to 9:3.  That will let me run regular gas. .  .
 
I don't think that will hurt my performance much, the 62 body is actually pretty light.  With adding an overdrive to the engine, I might be OK with these heads.  But I'd like to hear from more people on this.
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Jason Goldsack on November 09, 2010, 02:44:55 PM
The 516's have the little 1.60 exhaust valve...

I run the 452's on my 361.. factory was 9.6 I bet I'm around 8 to 1 now.. Works great and never pings.. run on regular gas.

BTW.. I ran a stock piston 400 in my BB aspen I used to have.. it worked out to 7 to 1 compression during the reringing.. I put a 494/292 cam, M-1 Intake, 750 holley, 3000 stall and 3.91 gear and ran 12.80@ 109.. at 3900 lbs..

going the opposite way.. my buddy installed the 1.73 exhaust valve in some 516 heads, and put it on a low compression stock piston 440 with a 509 MP cam. It bumped the compression up to 9.5 to 1 and he ran 12.16 in a Challenger..




Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Steve on November 09, 2010, 02:58:01 PM
[/QUOTE]

These are closed chamber heads.  Maybe their not  452's then.  LEABURN!
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Jason Goldsack on November 09, 2010, 04:09:49 PM


Do you have a part number? The 452 is the last three digits..

From the 906 heads in 68 up to 77 they were all open chamber. The lesser known 346 heads were open chamber in 71-74.

The 915 were basically a 516 with the larger exhaust valve and the throat enlarged under the seat to match up with the larger valve . ( if you grind the seat in 516's for the 1.73 you need to take out that metal under the seat to open it up to the 1.73 valve size)

1965Windsor3612010-11-09 21:14:35
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Jason Goldsack on November 09, 2010, 04:13:28 PM
here is some reading about the different heads for you steve..

 Mopar Heads (http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/5115_cylinder_heads/index.html)


Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Leaburn Patey on November 09, 2010, 05:47:27 PM
I rebuilt my New Yorker's 440 with stock pistons,bottom end.Worked a freebie set of junk 452's and with the RV cam never had any problems with performance,torque,and MPG.
What you would lose in Compression,you can make up for in port matching,bowl blending,and back cut the valves.
As Steve mentioned in his small block thread--and this applies to any engine-the better it flows air/fuel,the more effecient and more power it can make.

Years ago,people thought you could make power from the bottom end.
Today,with today's Corn Whiskey at the gaz pumps,people are finding power in the top end.
With the proper cam choice with the 452 heads,the 413 can actually gain more torque and maintain the same horsepower---at a lower compression ratio. 
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Steve on November 09, 2010, 06:31:34 PM
I wrote to the E Booger and got the following
 
--- On Tue, 11/9/10, Steve Hobby <steve@justservers.com> wrote:

Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Guests on November 09, 2010, 06:39:41 PM
That was an excellent breakdown of the head casting and there were several months worth of articles there was so much information, remember it well, have it in my collection. Flow is the key. Most of the open chamber heads are difficult to improve as far as edging goes, but the closed chambered heads can gain some real major numbers over stock or untouched chambers and a porting job alone. The 452 heads (as the article noted) is still a 906 head, the difference is almost unnoticeable back to back, and they all port quite evenly across the board. The early small exhaust valve was a mistake, and I really wish they would have gone 2.25 intake on some of the more special engine combination, but has been noted in the past, the 440 would have been more competition to the 426 Hemi, and they couldn't have that. 
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Stitcherbob on November 09, 2010, 09:27:02 PM

As far as the hardened-seat debate goes, E-berg says:

"The seats usually "go" before the valves - they get pounded into
recession - they are just cast grey iron (with a bit of nickel.)

Having said that, I think it would take many years of "normal" street driving for any problems to surface. My recommendation: just drive it.
 Then, if you rack up another 30-40K, and begin to notice a miss from a
less-than-perfect valve seal (which typically shows up first at idle),
you can consider whether to install seats in your original 
heads, or swap something newer on."
stitcherbob2010-11-10 02:27:53
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Stan Paralikis on November 09, 2010, 10:59:55 PM
Use the 452's,  zero deck your block, and use the right pistons to get the exact C.R. you want.  K.I.S.S.
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Steve on November 10, 2010, 01:09:22 PM
I want to K.I.S.S. it even more.  The block is already rebuilt.  I was just planning on just doing the porting and dropping them on.
 
POLARACO2010-11-10 18:11:53
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Stan Paralikis on November 10, 2010, 02:31:51 PM

Quote from: POLARACO
 

http://www.campbellenterprises.com/mopar_sealed_power_cast_pistons.htm (http://www.campbellenterprises.com/mopar_sealed_power_cast_pistons.htm)
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Guests on November 10, 2010, 05:32:35 PM
Know what? I haven't had any seat/valve problems from the early heads and the unleaded gas. I have 225K on a set of 915 heads (in fact, 1962 361 closed chambers and all, rocker pedistals are aluminum and not part of the head, and 4 bolt valve covers to boot), and they have all but two of the original valves (two exhaust valves changed, original seats still). Ford and GM products are a different story, they used inferior parts to start with, Ma Mopar had engineers which designed the engines for higher quality and reliability.

So, if the question remains, do you want to use the original heads without dropping tons of money into hardened seats and all that, yeah, go for it, they will last plenty long without valve or valve seat damage, 452s are not mandatory for longevity.
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Steve on November 10, 2010, 06:07:37 PM
That wasn't the issue here.  I am trying to reduce the work on the motor swap later on.  Since I need to pull the 62- 413 from the 65, these 352's, would allow me to complete the build on the 65 engine.  Otherwise I would have to play musical heads when the 62 is pulled.  I can port the 352's and have them ready.  I have a set of original 65 heads already.  I just need to put on a set of seals.  This would make my life easier in the spring.
 
Confused yet?
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Guests on November 11, 2010, 06:15:47 PM
There are two things. Do you know what the compression is of the 413 with the closed chamber heads, as compared to the compression drop you will get with the 10cc increase in combustion chamber size. If the engine is 10:1 or above and you drop it down to 8.9:1, then you are fine, port the heck out of them, but if it is a 9:1 engine and it drops down to 7.8:1, well, she will still run like heck, but it won't be that sweet. This is a pretty close calculation of the real values, so some verification on your part needs to be weighed.
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Steve on November 12, 2010, 04:44:03 AM
Ratio is 10:1
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Guests on November 12, 2010, 06:28:30 AM
Go for it then. You will still be above 9:1 with the extra 10cc sized combustion chamber.
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Steve on November 12, 2010, 08:32:47 AM
Am I correct in understanding these heads will flow better than the stock 906's (Is the 906 the stock head on a 413?  I can't read the numbers on the head)
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Guests on November 12, 2010, 06:08:51 PM
If you read the Mopar Muscle article, you will find that they flow within five percent of each other, all port to the same level of performance. The 413 should have closed chamber heads and small exhaust valves (1.60 vice the revised in 1967 to 1.74). They all have 2.08 intakes, so that part doesn't change, but no, no dramatic flow improvement worth mentioning or bragging about.  Now, if you have 906 heads on her right now, someone else changed them to the open combustion chamber heads to drop the compression already.  Remember, new seats not needed no matter what.
 
Steve, print out that MM article, it is definitely a wealth of knowledge and great reference.
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Jason Goldsack on November 13, 2010, 04:45:14 AM
Making me think about putting the 516's back on my 361 to gain back compression..

Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Stan Paralikis on November 13, 2010, 07:19:59 AM
Sheesh....  flow rates, valve sizes, seat....  Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze.
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Jason Goldsack on November 13, 2010, 09:21:02 AM
The 516's were off mine when I got the car.. the 452's where already on.

My car see 3000 a year.. but the original 516's would have had 97000 miles on the heads and probably 75% percent on unleaded gas.. I would certainly have to have the seats looked at on mine.

What you are assuming is that the heads without hardened seats have good seats to begin with.


Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Guests on November 13, 2010, 02:10:29 PM
Stan, did you just wake up or what?
 
I would hope the valves had a decent valve grind on them and they were sealing properly, but don't figure a valve job requires new seats be installed, THAT IS MY MAIN POINT ABOUT THESE HEADS. Stock valves and stock heads are tougher than any other factory heads out there, leaded or non-leaded configuration. 
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Steve on November 13, 2010, 04:13:40 PM
Stan is partially right.  I'm not building a NASCAR special.  But I do intend to drive it more than 1000 a year.  This was originally supposed to be my daily driver.  I went 3 years with out it before I built Polaraco.  Will I ever let Polaraco go?  Probably not. . .
 
This whole discussion is about the feasibility of getting good flowing heads, which possible have hardened seats.  I want to short cut my work by shaping the 352's and it looks like I am OK there.  If I do some valve cutting, they will flow as well as the rest.  That's fine. 
 
I still don't know if the 352's have hardened seats, and the other question is what heads were stock on the 413.
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: Guests on November 13, 2010, 05:20:25 PM
I would think they are the same heads I have on my 64 361, 915s or 615s. Nice closed chamber with 1.60  exhaust valves, fine for a stock head of any size engine, like the 413. 
All 452s had hardened seats, done when unleaded gas became more mainstream in the early 70s.
Title: 76 400, 452 heads on a 413??
Post by: glen cyr on November 13, 2010, 06:09:32 PM
 I just brought a set of 340 "J" heads into the machine shop and although i've got 8 stellite seats to put in,i was only going to do that if the valves were sunk too much. Turns out after probably about 30,000 miles on them,it wasn't the unleaded fuel that killed the valve job,but BAD valve guides.I guess my new brass valve guides may outlast the valve job this time.My machinist is a MOPAR guy and he knows all about the high nickel content in these heads. Actually he mentioned that after so many cycles and the valves coming in contact so many times,it actually hardens the seats (kind of like tempering steel). I elected to spend the money elsewere. Being that i supplied the new stainless valves which are already cut,he only charged me half the price of a job as he only has to do the seats.Not too many other places will do that. $22 to bake,magnaflux and shot peen each head,now there's a deal!
Glen