MoparFins

Techical Discussions => General Tech => Topic started by: Scott on September 15, 2010, 07:11:28 PM

Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Scott on September 15, 2010, 07:11:28 PM
I was driving along, enjoying a nice ride in my '65 300 'vert when it died all of a sudden and wouldn't start.  I thought it was the coil but I replaced it and it still won't start.  It's getting fuel so I know it has to do something with spark.  Any clues what it could be?  The FSM says faulty coil or condensor.  Would a faulty condensor cause the motor to quit?
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Dan Cluley on September 15, 2010, 07:14:24 PM
My first thought is the ballast resistor.
 
D Cluley2010-09-16 00:18:16
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Scott on September 15, 2010, 07:26:33 PM

Quote from: D Cluley
My first thought is the ballast resistor.
 

Brand new points, condensor and distributor.  Brand new Ballast Resistor too.
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Dan Cluley on September 15, 2010, 08:17:50 PM
Let's start by checking if power is getting to the coil.
 
With the ignition turned on:
 
connect black multimeter probe to a good ground
touch red probe to the + connection on the coil (should be the blue wire)
 
Should be about 6 volts. 
If it is, then you have power, and the problem is something with the coil/distributor/plugs.
 
If there is no voltage at the coil, then we need to trace that blue wire back. (for each of these, the black probe goes to ground & the red probe goes to the connection being checked)
 
One end of the ballast resistor has a plug with the blue wire & a brown wire.  This should read 6 volts
 
The other end of the ballast resistor just has the blue wire, this should be 12 volts.
 
The ign terminal on the voltage regulator (blue wire again) should also be 12 volts.
 
-------------
 
Start with those, if there is no power getting to the voltage regulator, then we need to start messing with the bulkhead connector and the ignition switch, so try the easy stuff first(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
 
 
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Scott on September 15, 2010, 08:20:58 PM
Thanks Dan.  I'll check this stuff out in the morning.
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Scott on September 16, 2010, 05:04:04 AM
Okay, 7.4 volts at the coil.  Problem must be in the distributor.  I tried a different coil last night and it wouldn't fire.  I'll have to check the points gap and condensor.  How do I test the condensor?
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Steve on September 16, 2010, 06:26:59 AM
Quote from: rexus31
Okay, 7.4 volts at the coil.  Problem must be in the distributor.  I tried a different coil last night and it wouldn't fire.  I'll have to check the points gap and condensor.  How do I test the condensor?


 
Change it.  LOL
 
Are those the points when you bought the distributor?  If so. . .  .  Remember the OEM rule.  Cheaper the better
 
 Bring the motor around so the points are open.  Turn the key on and open and close the points with a screw driver.  see if they spark.  Be careful it's not to short them to the case.  That usually rulls out half what I suggested.
 
is it at least trying to start?
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Scott on September 16, 2010, 08:07:11 AM
I checked the points gap with them on the cam and I couldn't even get the .010 feeler gauge in between.  I adjusted the points to .018 and it still didn't fire.  It's not even wanting to fire.  I was thinking maybe the condensor blew because the points were too close for who knows how long.  I had noticed recently the car was idling a little rough; like it had a little bit of a cam in it.  Anyway, I pulled those points and found the plastic retainer that holds the condensor contact and negative lead wire contact was cracked.

I tried installing a new set of points but when I went to tighten the points the screw was stripped.  I think it is stripped on the actual plate on the distributor.  The distributor is covered under warranty and I should get it later this afternoon.  I have a Pertronix Ignitor II setup with coil and I am contemplating installing it and ditching the points.  I even have a ballast with the guts removed and a 12 gauge wire connecting the two terminals to run the Pertronix.
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Jason Goldsack on September 16, 2010, 09:12:57 AM
I had the same problem with my 65.. turns out it was oil sucked in to the intake and fouled the plugs..

Make sure you intake bolts are tight and pull the plugs


Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Steve on September 16, 2010, 09:27:10 AM
That cam looks awful dry.  But it looks like it was lubed.  Or maybe not.  If you look at the cam on the points, there is metal sticking to it.
 
Jason had the same problem.  Get some point lube.  Put some on with a Q-Tip
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Scott on September 16, 2010, 12:19:57 PM
What's everyone's take on the Pertronix unit?
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Steve on September 16, 2010, 12:35:10 PM
They work well and a re fairly reliable as long as you hook them up to the reduced voltage
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Scott on September 16, 2010, 01:43:37 PM
What do you mean by reduced voltage?
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Leaburn Patey on September 16, 2010, 01:59:56 PM
I use Pertronix and love the simple set up.
No mods whatsoever.Just hook up both wires to the coil.
No ballast resistor mods--nothing.
The NYer had the Ignitor in there for ten years .I daily drove my 71 Coronet for years with it.The Boab has it too.
With the hotter spark,I use an Accel Super Stock coil painted to look stock and gap the plugs  37 thou instead of the factory 35 thou.
Your timing will need to be adjusted and may not follow factory settings.Typically the timing will need to go up just a bit.Also you can fatten up the mixture to match the timing.
The result is more bottom end,crisp response,and smoooth idle.
 
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Steve on September 16, 2010, 03:02:52 PM
Here we go with the wiring again.. .   LOL
 
Bad wire on the points, ballast, shorted points, Bad Rotor, coil wire, jumped time, Bad cap
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: firedome on September 16, 2010, 03:12:27 PM
Mopar wiring is almost as bad as British!! ... Joesph Lucas, the Prince of Darkness.

Why do the Brits drink warm beer? They all have Lucas refrigerators!!



Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Steve on September 16, 2010, 03:35:05 PM
Mopar wiring is OK except for 71 wiring.  The rest is pretty good.
 
Lucas made a llot of tow truck drivers rich
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Scott on September 16, 2010, 05:21:37 PM
Here's where I'm at.
I got the new distributor, installed the Pertronix Ignitor II and Coil.  Still no fire!  I'm getting 12V to the positive terminal on the coil but no spark out of the coil.  Is it possible to have 2 bad coils?  What could it be?
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Steve on September 16, 2010, 08:21:23 PM
First of all, you need to have the ballast resistor in the circuit.  The Pertronix requires the resistor or it will burn out.  If you are seeing 12 volts at the coil, and the Pertronix is wired to the same, you may have burned out the Pertronix unit already.  Trust me.  It doesn't take long to fry it.

 
Throw another set of points and condenser in it if you have too.  They can withstand the voltage better, but the coil will eventually over heat and fry too.
 
That said, are you sure the voltage on the + at the coil is 12?  I thought you said 7.5 earlier
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Guests on September 16, 2010, 09:24:39 PM
Yeah, Pertronics run on 9.5 volts, so yes, the ballast resistor does fix that problem. Now, to help keep from running the battery down and all that jazz, mark the distributor so you know where it is supposed to be, and loosen the bracket so it will move semi-freely. When you get done checking something, pop the distributor cap to see where the rotor is (the rotor is in place, right?), and with the key on, you should be able to turn the distributor so it is over that spark plug and going back and forth you should be able to get a spark through a spark plug grounded to the engine. Saves a lot of gas, batteries, wonder all the way around. Once you determine there is spark, set the mark on the distributor where it was and tighten the bracket, make her work the way she was designed to.
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Scott on September 17, 2010, 04:45:35 AM

Quote from: POLARACO
First of all, you need to have the ballast resistor in the circuit.  The Pertronix requires the resistor or it will burn out.  If you are seeing 12 volts at the coil, and the Pertronix is wired to the same, you may have burned out the Pertronix unit already.  Trust me.  It doesn't take long to fry it.

 
Throw another set of points and condenser in it if you have too.  They can withstand the voltage better, but the coil will eventually over heat and fry too.
 



What is the little condensor looking thing whose wire goes to the negative side of the coil?  It's held in place by one of the coil bracket nuts.
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Steve on September 17, 2010, 05:51:30 AM
That's a noise suppressor for the radio.  Leave it off for the time being
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Steve on September 17, 2010, 06:01:05 AM
Try running a jumper from the Battery right to the coil and see if it will start.  You may have voltage, but not enough current.  Also see if you can read the voltage on the load side of the ballast when the key is in the start position.  Set the brake and put it in gear for that test.  You should see 12 volts when the key is in the start position.
 
I know this is a really dumb question. . .The distributor is turning inside right?
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Scott on September 17, 2010, 06:30:46 AM

Quote from: POLARACO
Try running a jumper from the Battery right to the coil and see if it will start.  You may have voltage, but not enough current.  Also see if you can read the voltage on the load side of the ballast when the key is in the start position.  Set the brake and put it in gear for that test.  You should see 12 volts when the key is in the start position.
 

Yes, distributor is turning.  I am going to put the points and condensor in, get a new coil and rotor and see what happens.  I will check the current at the coil and ballast before I start cranking.
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Steve on September 17, 2010, 06:38:29 AM
You said that Pertronix wanted you to take the ballast resistor out?  Are you sure about that?  The Mopar unit requires it.  I remember the instructions can confuse you
 
Check that coil output with the cap and rotor off the disty too
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Scott on September 17, 2010, 06:58:30 AM
Here are the directions.
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c206/rexus31/Reference%20Pics/PertronixDirections.jpg)
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Steve on September 17, 2010, 07:45:00 AM
It's too bad you're 3500 miles away
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Scott on September 17, 2010, 07:51:17 AM

Quote from: POLARACO
It's too bad you're 3500 miles away



Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Scott on September 17, 2010, 12:43:04 PM
Okay, I've installed the new distributor with new points and condensor.  I've installed a new coil as well.  I have not connected the distributor to the coil yet.  With the key in the "On" position I am getting around 11.5 volts to (+) side of the coil, both sides of the Ballast Resistor and on the Ignition side of the Voltage Regulator.  Is it a bad Ignition Switch or a bad Ballast Resistor or a faulty something else?
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Dan Cluley on September 18, 2010, 12:49:43 AM
Quote from: rexus31
With the key in the "On" position I am getting around 11.5 volts to (+) side of the coil, both sides of the Ballast Resistor and on the Ignition side of the Voltage Regulator.  Is it a bad Ignition Switch or a bad Ballast Resistor or a faulty something else?
 
Just to make sure, this is with the key just in the "On" position, like the engine is running, not the "Start" that cranks the starter, right?
 
 
If so, pull the plugs off the ballast resistor and check those places again.
 
The connection on the voltage regulator and the single wire plug (just blue) that goes on one end of the ballast resistor should still be about 12 v.
 
The coil and the two wire ballast resistor connector (one blue, one brown?) should be zero.
 
If so, then somehow the ballast resistor isn't dropping the voltage like it should.
 
If you still show 12v on the wire from the ballast resistor to the coil, then somehow that brown wire is getting power, which it shouldn't unless the key is in the start posistion.
 
That could be bad ignition switch, or a problem somewhere in the wiring between the switch, the bulkhead connector and the ballast resistor.
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Scott on September 18, 2010, 05:41:34 AM


Quote from: D Cluley
Quote from: rexus31
With the key in the "On" position I am getting around 11.5 volts to (+) side of the coil, both sides of the Ballast Resistor and on the Ignition side of the Voltage Regulator.  Is it a bad Ignition Switch or a bad Ballast Resistor or a faulty something else?
 
Just to make sure, this is with the key just in the "On" position, like the engine is running, not the "Start" that cranks the starter, right?
 
 
If so, pull the plugs off the ballast resistor and check those places again.
 
The connection on the voltage regulator and the single wire plug (just blue) that goes on one end of the ballast resistor should still be about 12 v.
 
The coil and the two wire ballast resistor connector (one blue, one brown?) should be zero.
 
If so, then somehow the ballast resistor isn't dropping the voltage like it should.
 
If you still show 12v on the wire from the ballast resistor to the coil, then somehow that brown wire is getting power, which it shouldn't unless the key is in the start posistion.
 


I will check the voltage of the wires disconnected from the ballast.  At this point it is a faulty ballast or a faulty ignition switch.
rexus312010-09-18 10:42:36
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Steve on September 18, 2010, 07:14:01 AM
Poorly made ballast Maybe.  I wouldn't think ignition switch.    hard to tell with the voltage so high at the coil. . .  Remember, when you hit the starter, the ballast is temporarily bypassed and it goes direct.  Unless there is something wrong in the wiring.
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Scott on September 18, 2010, 07:42:28 AM

Quote from: POLARACO
Poorly made ballast Maybe.  I wouldn't think ignition switch.    hard to tell with the voltage so high at the coil. . .  Remember, when you hit the starter, the ballast is temporarily bypassed and it goes direct.  Unless there is something wrong in the wiring.

Okay.  I checked the voltages at the ballast wires with them disconnected from the ballast and the key in the "On" position.  The single blue wire has 11.7 volts an the blue/brown wire terminal has zero.  I installed the new ballast and connected the terminals and I am reading 11.7 volts on both sides of the ballast, 11.7 at the (+) side of the coil and 11.7 at the Ignition side of the voltage regulator.  WTF????  There is no way I've got 2 bad ballast resistors, one brand new.  The distributor has continuity but I am hesitant to connect it to the coil with it getting such a high voltage.  I'm stumped. 
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Jason Goldsack on September 18, 2010, 08:02:18 AM
That is really weird..

What ohm ballast did you install?


Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Scott on September 18, 2010, 09:07:56 AM
It's running.  What I learned through this whole process is the ballast will not function if the distributor is not connected to the coil.  As soon as I connected the distributor I had 7 volts at the blue/brown terminal on the ballast and at the (+) side of the coil.  Thank God.  The problem is, I'll never really know what the issue was because I changed everything.
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Steve on September 18, 2010, 10:34:33 AM
Yahhh  Whooooooo
 
The distributor has to be connected to the coil.  The points interupt the voltage and create A/C.  That's where you get the hot spark from.  All the coil is, is a transformer.  It's packed in oil for cooling. 
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Guests on September 18, 2010, 04:54:34 PM
YEAAAAAAA!
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Jason Goldsack on September 18, 2010, 05:18:49 PM
I'm glad you found out the issue..

Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Steve on September 18, 2010, 06:40:11 PM
Just so you know, the blue wire is the coil feed from the Ballast.  The brown wire is in the starter circuit.  It temporarily feeds full voltage to the coil when starting.  This makes it easier to start.  When the starter is engaged, it compensates for the drop in voltage.
 
That's why I asked if it was trying to start.  If the ballast is bad, it will run as long as the starter is engaged.  When you let the key go, the engine will stop.  Hence the Blue and Brown wires together.
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Dan Cluley on September 19, 2010, 01:16:04 AM
Glad it worked out.  
 
The whole "no load" thing that Mike on the Dock pointed out makes sense, just hadn't ever ocurred to me.
 
Everytime you have a problem with your car, I end up learning something new.
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Scott on September 19, 2010, 03:43:49 AM

Quote from: D Cluley
Glad it worked out.  
 
The whole "no load" thing that Mike on the Dock pointed out makes sense, just hadn't ever ocurred to me.
 

Me too!  Thanks for your help.  Now, if you ever have any of these issues with your car (I hope you don't) we have a reference.
Title: '65 Chrysler Won't Start
Post by: Steve on September 19, 2010, 11:19:50 AM
Mine will be back next year