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Techical Discussions => Tech- - DRIVE TRAIN => Topic started by: Anthony Prescott on September 12, 2010, 11:57:58 AM

Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Anthony Prescott on September 12, 2010, 11:57:58 AM
is there any reason this combination will not work? my goal is to use it for heavy hauls on hills and in the mountains. here's a little back story: the 413 industrial came out of a 72 motor home and the t-18 came from a 65 jeep gladiator. the motor home had 12xxx miles and the jeep has 15xxx miles.  i had an adaptor built to line them up. they fit perfectly. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif)
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Steve on September 12, 2010, 12:44:30 PM
The industrial 413 is nothing more than a truck engine, also used in other stationary applications.  If I recall, Chrysler Sirens from the cold war area used that engine.
 
They are torquie suckers.  They also had extra steam ports in the heads.  When rebuilding them, be sure you refer to the year and make it clear it's from a Mo Home.  Some things are not the same to the car 413's.
 
[color=#ffffff size=7]WELCOME![/color]
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Anthony Prescott on September 12, 2010, 01:13:37 PM
there is a lot to know about these industrial engines. i've researched everything and built it up. it runs great. its got some power, alright. i ran it in my truck before with a heavy duty 727. the issue is not the performance of the engine, but the outcome with the new transmission. the t-18. i think it'll do fine, but somebody on another forum told me that it'll be great... for a day. what was his concern? am i missing something? i'm now worried that i'm doing all of this work for nothing. any input would be appreciated
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Steve on September 12, 2010, 01:32:40 PM
You would have probably been better off with the Mo Home trans.  The trans is heavier trans because it's installed in a typical 500-600-700 series chassis.  I don'tknow what the T18 is.  I can't imagine a jeep trans being as strong as the Mo Home trans
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Stan Paralikis on September 12, 2010, 01:40:58 PM



Quote from: moparmanof85
but somebody on another forum told me that it'll be great... for a day. what was his concern?
The T18 is a pretty clunky tranny to begin with.  1st gear is a non-synchro stump puller and I believe the torque rating is 900 ft-lbs!  It will rip apart quickly.  If you could swap that T18 for an A833 Mopar 4 speed, your conversion would be a heck of a lot simpler.  A modified A727 Torqueflite automatic would be a piece of cake.

Commando12010-09-12 18:51:09
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Steve on September 12, 2010, 02:23:44 PM
Stick around. . . .Stan may have a whole setup for you. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Anthony Prescott on September 12, 2010, 02:59:51 PM
ok... good point. here's my reasoning... i want a 4 speed with a granny gear. i need it to hold me back going down the hills carrying 7k lbs behind the truck. i hate having to get the rotors turned every three weeks. is there a 4 speed granny box thats heavy heavy? i need a transfer case that will stand pulling junk cars out of a canyon too. what do you think? i've seen some old jeeps in action. and the t-18 did the job right. if you dont think it'll work, give me another option. the front axel has a passenger side pumpkin
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Anthony Prescott on September 12, 2010, 03:01:45 PM
oh. they dont make an adaptor, i had to cast my own.
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Steve on September 12, 2010, 05:02:00 PM
Lets start with what you are putting all this into.
 
I'm thinking International back in the 60's.  Try looking for a Travelall
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Anthony Prescott on September 12, 2010, 05:13:47 PM
its goung into a 91 dodge ram 250 4x4.  travelell??? whats that?
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Anthony Prescott on September 12, 2010, 05:14:21 PM
*goung* going
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Steve on September 12, 2010, 06:20:13 PM
Quote from: moparmanof85
its goung into a 91 dodge ram 250 4x4.  travelell??? whats that?


 
My favorite expression comes to mind.  Damned Kids.(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
International Travelall.  Made from 1957 to 1980.  Came in gas and Diesel in later years.  If you heard of a IH Scout, this was it's big brother.  It came out before the Jeep Wagoneer and was a whole lot tougher.
 
Now You'll aske me what a Wagoneer is.   www.google.com (http://www.google.com)  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Guests on September 12, 2010, 06:49:27 PM
http://www.jeepfan.com/tech/jeeptech/transmission-factory-t18.htm (http://www.jeepfan.com/tech/jeeptech/transmission-factory-t18.htm)

 
From the readings, I believe it would be a strong enough tranny at this point, even if it is a Borg Warner, even though there are stronger transmissions out there, an A833 would definitely not be a good idea, it is a car transmission, the T18 is a truck transmssion, pulling, hauling, and non-racing applications. It may not be one I would cruise 90mph on the highway for hours on end, but third up a steep hill with a load would be OK.
 
The big question is, with all the Mopar truck transmissions, why not one of them? Dodge 4X4s are pretty good.
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Anthony Prescott on September 12, 2010, 06:54:01 PM
low budget. scrapped the jeep, saved the drivetrain. plus, things are hard to come by in the mountains. i dont know of any places in the san jose, california area that has used truck parts cheap. if anybdy does, let me know.
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Guests on September 12, 2010, 07:02:38 PM
Craiglist comes to mind in that area, but I think you are OK for quite  a while with that combination.
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Anthony Prescott on September 12, 2010, 07:02:41 PM
damn kids is right, i was born in 85. i DO know what a scout is, had one myself. had a 65 jeep gladiator as well. the question that i pose is this: how many "DAMN KIDS" do you know who work a 20 hour day pulling stuff out of a canyon to bring home bread. i built this myself, without the help from my daddy. its ok though. most KIDS out there dont give a damn. Coming from an oklahoma farm, i do know how to work. thanks
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Anthony Prescott on September 12, 2010, 07:04:56 PM
you have been a great help though. for this i say thanks. keep ahead of those damn kids. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif)
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Anthony Prescott on September 12, 2010, 07:06:18 PM
is it possible to shave down the input shaft myself, or is it better to take it to a shop?
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Guests on September 12, 2010, 09:03:19 PM
Steve picks on all of us, if it isn't damn kids its damn swabbies (Retired Navy, 26years, tells my age), and Steve, well, he beats me by at least a decade. Sounds like you are a worthy individual, yes, but we do have mild name calling at this level, nothing harsher, and it is all in fun. Now that we can all have a big hug and sing Kumbaiya by the campfire built by rubbing two sticks together and flamed by unnecessary anger energy.........
 
The answer to your input shaft question is to ask a question first. Since the pilot bushing in the end of the crankshaft is part of the problem, have you removed the bushing to see if it is large enough to have it drilled out so the input shaft will fit it? You need to maintain at least .125 wall thickness, more would be better, but the input shaft should be hardened, which makes it difficult to do yourself it has to be done on a lathe to ensure it is kept centered, otherwise it will chew itself up within minutes.
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Stan Paralikis on September 13, 2010, 04:15:15 AM


Quote from: POLARACO
Stick around. . . .Stan may have a whole setup for you. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
You're leaving the new kid on the block a bad impression.
Commando12010-09-13 09:15:52
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Stan Paralikis on September 13, 2010, 04:20:39 AM

The more ideal way, but it's not an option now because the crank is in the engine, is to have the end of the crank machined to accept a regular bushing taht will fit your needs.   I'm, personally, always nervous about machining bushings and bearings to "make" them fit. Rather modify where they go into.  Personal preference.
Commando12010-09-13 09:21:32
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Steve on September 13, 2010, 06:27:09 AM
Quote from: moparmanof85
damn kids is right, i was born in 85. i DO know what a scout is, had one myself. had a 65 jeep gladiator as well. the question that i pose is this: how many "DAMN KIDS" do you know who work a 20 hour day pulling stuff out of a canyon to bring home bread. i built this myself, without the help from my daddy. its ok though. most KIDS out there dont give a damn. Coming from an oklahoma farm, i do know how to work. thanks

(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
I was a farm boy too.  Now I'm even too old to crawl. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
 
As I said, that's my favorite expression.  We have allot of fun with it.
 
They're struggling to come up with a roast for me though (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Guests on September 13, 2010, 01:39:40 PM
Quote from: Commando1
The more ideal way, but it's not an option now because the crank is in the engine, is to have the end of the crank machined to accept a regular bushing taht will fit your needs.   I'm, personally, always nervous about machining bushings and bearings to "make" them fit. Rather modify where they go into.  Personal preference.

This is true, but since it is a simple inside and outside dimension, one may be available by matching up dimensions. As a second thought, since it is an adapted transmission/engine combo, the spacer to make it work may even allow an external bushing be bolted to the flywheel/crank bolts like so many of the newer bushings are. Time to break out the micrometers and calipers to see what he has and what he needs at this point. The analysis has been given, the needed theoretical requirements given, just time to apply them to the situation.
Ed
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Steve on September 13, 2010, 03:05:44 PM
Seems to me the industrial/truck engines all came drilled.  I can't remember seeing a 413 not drilled.  Allot have come across these eyes over the years. 
 
The swabbies like them as boat anchors.  I have three 413's.  2- 360's and a 318.  All are drilled now that I think of it
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Guests on September 13, 2010, 07:14:45 PM
Yeah, back in the days, things were built better, prepped better, and good forgings to boot. Time to measure for a pilot bushing, not change the hardening on the input shaft.
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Snotty on September 13, 2010, 09:23:48 PM
Quote from: moparmanof85
ok... good point. here's my reasoning... i want a 4 speed with a granny gear. i need it to hold me back going down the hills carrying 7k lbs behind the truck. i hate having to get the rotors turned every three weeks. is there a 4 speed granny box thats heavy heavy? i need a transfer case that will stand pulling junk cars out of a canyon too. what do you think? i've seen some old jeeps in action. and the t-18 did the job right. if you dont think it'll work, give me another option. the front axel has a passenger side pumpkin


 
NP435.  Made by Mopar's New Process, it was used in all makes, and could be found in trucks all the way to 5 tons, Bobtails, and School Busses for years.   It's a "bullit-proof" transmission.  With the right rear-end gears it will work on anything you would come up with. 
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Stan Paralikis on September 14, 2010, 03:03:33 AM

There are bell housings that will mate the BB to the NP434.
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Anthony Prescott on September 14, 2010, 03:44:44 AM
thank you all for your replies. i changed my mind though. the truck is originally an automatic, so this would mean changing a whole lot more than the input shaft. i still have the heavy duty 727 that came with the industrial. thats what i'm going to use, along with a devorced transfer case. they have the hi low range that would sort of act like a granny gear. (CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG PLEASE.) so for now, the ind 413 w/ 727. still gonna put my axels in for future t.case. thanks yall
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Anthony Prescott on September 14, 2010, 03:52:43 AM
what's the best devorced t.case to score? np? spicer, if they even made one? gimme some numbers guys. remember, im just a damn kid. they stopped making this stuff before i was born. cant find any reference books worth a damn either. 
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Guests on September 14, 2010, 06:03:25 AM
I hear the NP203 case is pretty good and it was used on Mopars amongst the others.
This should help
 
http://www.offroaders.com/tech/Diagrams/np203.htm (http://www.offroaders.com/tech/Diagrams/np203.htm)
 
http://www.high-impact.net/transmission_and_gear/Tcase_NP203.htm (http://www.high-impact.net/transmission_and_gear/Tcase_NP203.htm)
 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NP-203-transfer-case-Dodge-PU-Trail-Duster-Ramcharger-/320005621377?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4a81d24681 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NP-203-transfer-case-Dodge-PU-Trail-Duster-Ramcharger-/320005621377?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4a81d24681)
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Snotty on September 14, 2010, 10:29:21 AM
The lo-range on the T.case would act as a "granny."

 
But, you might encounter another problem.  I may be wrong, but I beleive you will need another tail-shaft on that 727 if you want to use the t.case.  If so - and i'm hoping someone will say for certain - it would be easier to try to find a wrecked 4WD in a yard and pull that transmission and case.
 
You wll be limited in needing to find a Big-block Mopar truck.   727 TQs are block-sensitive.  You cannot use one from a 318 for that 413, and vise-versa.
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Steve on September 14, 2010, 12:45:22 PM
See if you can find a mid 60's Power wagon.  The T Case is separate and you can stub shaft from a 727 to it.  It's mechanically engaged, so you'll have a lever on the floor.  Nowthat set up, trans and all, will pull a house down.  Those trans's were real top loaded trans's.  All you'll need is a bell housing to match up to a RB.
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Guests on September 14, 2010, 08:40:54 PM
http://www.jeepfan.com/tech/jeeptech/transfer-cases-factory.htm (http://www.jeepfan.com/tech/jeeptech/transfer-cases-factory.htm)

Talk about every transfer case ever used in a Jeep, this is it.
 
One person that may be able to make a correct recommendation is MoparNorm over on the other site. If you want, I can ask him which would be a good one.
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Anthony Prescott on September 15, 2010, 12:25:04 PM
if i have the 727, why do i still need the bell housing?  as a follow up, i have the 413 torque convertor and the rb bell 727. its the motorhome heavy duty version. found a craigslist transfer case (NP205) divorced for $350. fools rusted to hell, though. i'll wait till something better comes along. meaning a less rusty version.
Title: 413 industrial with a t-18
Post by: Snotty on September 15, 2010, 02:05:57 PM
You would only need a bell for the 4-speed.  There have been comments on this thread for both auto and manual trans.  You need to be good at deciphering.