MoparFins

Techical Discussions => Tech- - Engine => Topic started by: Jason Goldsack on August 04, 2010, 03:39:44 AM

Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 04, 2010, 03:39:44 AM
I'm still running the points dizzy to a Mallory Hyfire ( for points) and a Crane PS92 coil.

It accelerates great and idles well but when I'm going down the road it feels like the engine is surging and maybe even misfiring ( I can feel movement of the engine in the gas pedal).. it shows 15 in on the vacuum gauge driving down the road which is normal for this engine.

The engine is a 361, M-1 dual plane intake with a Carter AFB, 383 Magnum cam.

I was wondering if this might be a points issue since it has been 5 years since, 8000 miles since I replaced them or a fuel issue.




Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 04, 2010, 03:53:39 AM
I went out and checked the dizzy... the shaft can move up and down quite a bit.. I wondering if maybe I'm getting spark scatter or it's just not contacting the terminals very well.. I have heard that you can put a collar on the shaft to stop the movement but I think it is just worn out.

There is zero wear on the points ( which i expected since I put in the Mallory Box which stops the 12 volts from going through the points)

The rotor shows no wear but the terminals on the cap look like they are wore slightly..

I'm wondering if it might be time to put in a new dizzy since this one is 45 years old and has 113 000 miles on it..


Title: Miss
Post by: Stan Paralikis on August 04, 2010, 05:38:58 AM
Quote from: 1965Windsor361
I'm wondering if it might be time to put in a new dizzy since this one is 45 years old and has 113 000 miles on it..




Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 04, 2010, 07:53:10 AM
How old is the one in your New Yorker and what is the mileage?

Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 04, 2010, 07:58:20 AM
I see you put in a rebuilt engine so my question doesn't apply...

Title: Miss
Post by: Guests on August 04, 2010, 03:15:24 PM
The movement up and down is normal, you want to check the wear going sideways. Take it to the point where you check the point gap, then push the shaft away from and pull towards the points to see if they change. A couple thousandths is one thing, to the point that they close completely is another. At this point, yes, bushings can be replaced in the housing. Next thing to look at is the carb itself to make sure it isn't going lean a tiny bit, or that the float is set right on that little grey area where it leans just before the float needle allows more fuel into the bowl. By strange coincidence, it could also be flooding by the float going too high and excess fumes/fuel enters the overflow vent and makes the surge go rich for a second or so before the level drops to proper level, so something to check. Does the vacuum make any kind of tiny stutter when you get this feeling at cruise? It would be real quick and might be half an inch of vacuum if it is the carb being real close borderline out of tune.
Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 04, 2010, 03:55:28 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/th_DSC02513.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/?action=view&current=DSC02513.jpg)

This is the inside of the cap. It looks like there is a lot of build up on the posts.. Time for a new cap.. anyone suggest a replacement.. I was told the best thing is to get an aftermarket cap as they are closer to the original that the auto parts replacements

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/th_DSC02512.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/?action=view&current=DSC02512.jpg)

The cam is looking worn.. should there be a point on each lobe or is it
smooth like a camshaft? This is starting to look round

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/th_DSC02511.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/?action=view&current=DSC02511.jpg)

Here is the Carb.. it was completely rebuilt 5 years ago and around 10 000 miles..

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/th_DSC02509.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/?action=view&current=DSC02509.jpg)

Just an underhood shot of my engine bay

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/th_DSC02514.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/?action=view&current=DSC02514.jpg)

When the stock coil died I used this one I had from my Big Block Aspen that is now gone

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/th_DSCF0017.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/?action=view&current=DSCF0017.jpg)

My ignition is a Mallory Hyfire 1. Ever since I went to this system my mileage went up and I have no wear on the points.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/th_DSC02517.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/?action=view&current=DSC02517.jpg)

Here is the vacuum gauge I have been using... the trusty old Sun Gauge






Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 05, 2010, 01:28:30 PM
Well this is weird.. This morning I drove the car to my wife's pizzeria and it drove without any issues.. actually ran very well...

Then tonight I drive it home and it starts to miss a bit on the way home.. WTF?



Title: Miss
Post by: Steve on August 05, 2010, 03:29:09 PM
First of all, I see no lube on the point cam.  That not being there can wear down the point cam.  That is something to look at.  You can still get point lube, it comes in a small tube about the size of a travel tooth paste.
 
2nd.  Check what Dana told you.
 
8000 miles with no lube is enough to throw out the points.  I would check the dwell and adjust as needed.
Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 05, 2010, 03:42:47 PM
Should I replace the cam?

The shaft is in great shape.. I'm wondering if i should just get the Petronix Conversion kit and be rid of the points...

It's nice to be working again.. I can finally get caught up on the old girls maintenance..she turned 45 at in the middle of June ...


Title: Miss
Post by: Steve on August 05, 2010, 04:05:29 PM
[/QUOTE]


 
Nah.  Just reset them and lub it up.  I've used red wheel bearing grease in a pinch.  Just a thin coat so not to sling it around.  You don't use them enough.
 
That could be the probablt cause of the miss
Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 05, 2010, 04:08:32 PM
It wouldn't hurt to through in a fresh set of points.. with no grease I bet the part that rids on the cam probably saw some wear and closed up the gap and screwed up the dwell..




Title: Miss
Post by: Steve on August 05, 2010, 04:10:34 PM
[/QUOTE]

That's what I am thinking.  But you should be OK. . .  Inspect it and decide from there.  Best plan I can think of
Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 05, 2010, 04:14:43 PM
I hope to find a dwell meter at the big car show in town this weekend..  either that I ditch it and go electronic...

I hate setting points and trying to get the points on the big part of the cam lobe.. pain the rear.. I have thought about making an under the hood push switch for the starter so i can be under the hood instead of running in and out of the car to bump the starter.


Title: Miss
Post by: Guests on August 05, 2010, 07:42:01 PM
I get it close, then reach in and turn the engine over by hand by pushing on the fan belt and turning the fan blade slowly (that is, as long as it isn't a clutch flan).  If you are happy with points, keep them. If you want to upgrade to Pertronics or Mallory Unilite (fits within the stock housing and cap, nothing outside except three wires, so really easy to install), and if the shaft isn't worn, both these don't have anything to do with the cam, so wear there isn't an issue.  Even a Q tip with a dab the size of a lady bug will work for the cam lube, it is just to make the plastic and metal slick to each other.
Title: Miss
Post by: Stan Paralikis on August 06, 2010, 02:25:44 AM

Quote from: dana44
.. reach in and turn the engine over by hand by pushing on the fan belt and turning the fan blade slowly...
I haven't seen that procedure in over 35 years. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
Title: Miss
Post by: Steve on August 06, 2010, 03:09:42 AM
Boy.  ..where have you been?
Title: Miss
Post by: Stan Paralikis on August 06, 2010, 04:21:40 AM
When was the last time YOU were able to spin an engine by turning the fan ??????
Title: Miss
Post by: Steve on August 06, 2010, 05:22:00 AM
Just a few weeks ago I did that.  Moved the car back a few inches that way
Title: Miss
Post by: Stan Paralikis on August 06, 2010, 10:26:54 AM
Here's your new avatar:
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/l.thumbs.canstockphoto.com/canstock2317446.jpg)
Commando12010-08-06 15:28:10
Title: Miss
Post by: Steve on August 06, 2010, 01:03:06 PM
Sigh. . .OK  be that way.  It's a stick twit
Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 06, 2010, 01:04:47 PM
You guys crack me up.. LOL

I had a slant six Cordoba you could spin over with the fan.. it was the sloppiest loose engine I had ever seen.. You could spin it and it would turn a bit before it stopped after you let go of it.. it had the option 3 to 1 compression .. LOL

We swapped that motor very quickly.. LOL


Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 06, 2010, 03:10:42 PM
Well.. a trip to the Bothwell Car Show swap meet got me a few things..

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/th_DSC02519.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/?action=view&current=DSC02519.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/th_DSC02520.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/?action=view&current=DSC02520.jpg)

For 3 bucks I got an Accel  Distributor Cap.. Wow is this plastic thick.. he also threw in a brand new set of points.. Nice deal..

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/th_DSC02518.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/?action=view&current=DSC02518.jpg)

For $20 I got an 1850 Holley 600 cfmVacuum Secondary Carb in really clean condition and still has the Holley Reman sticker on it.

I bought another Holley 1850 600 cfm for $20 but it needs a rebuild...


Title: Miss
Post by: Guests on August 06, 2010, 07:23:10 PM
Can't go wrong with a $20 Holley carb, even if it is a vacuum secondary. Have you seen the price of new ones????? Only thing more expensive is EFI setups.
Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 07, 2010, 03:58:15 AM
I just need to dig up my old Holley in the shed to get the Chrysler linkage adapter..

I figure 600 cfm is about right for this engine ( the only real mod is the 383 magnum cam)... and since this engine idles at 16 in. vacuum the 8.5 power valve is pretty close.






Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 07, 2010, 04:02:16 AM
Your not a fan of vacuum secondaries Dana44?

I like them because you only get the secondaries  if the engine needs it, not just dumping fuel in the engine. Timing the secondary opening is key.. much like on the AFB. You don't want to kill the signal by adding extra fuel too early.

Also since this isn't a race engine I really don't need the secondary shot like the Double Pumper have..

I ran a Holley 3310 for years in my BB Aspen well into the 12's and it was very consistent. The double pumper I put on after seemed to be very sensitive and I have to constantly adjust.


Title: Miss
Post by: Steve on August 07, 2010, 09:53:36 AM
I just uses a screw driver on the relay and then fine tune it with the fan.  If it's a clutch fan, I use the belts.
 
Take that Stonly
Title: Miss
Post by: Guests on August 07, 2010, 05:02:47 PM
No problem with vacuum secondaries, have two of them on my 6pac as a matter of fact. The key is tuning the spring in the vacuum canister itself. I just like a little more cfm for 360 cubic inches and above.
Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 08, 2010, 04:51:37 AM
6 pac 65 361 Windsor would be nice too.. LOL (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)

Title: Miss
Post by: Guests on August 08, 2010, 12:19:01 PM
My first 68 Charger ran a 361 6pac for seven years before I switched to 440 6pac, averaged 17mpg without difficulty. I may stroke the 361 and put her back in the Charger later on, the 440 goes into the Nash!
Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 08, 2010, 03:34:18 PM
Well I got the Holley on the Windsor. I put a 1 inch aluminum 4 hole spacer under it ( since I had it). After fixing a leak from the diaphragm for the pump shot I fired it up.

Actually I didn't even have to pump the throttle.. it just fired up. It idled a ton better than the AFB and the throttle is really crisp.

Since I can't find my Holley/Mopar adapter I'm gonna have to buy one..before I can go for a drive.

The Accel cap I bought must be for an aftermarket distributor as it is WAY too wide for my dizzy..




Title: Miss
Post by: Guests on August 08, 2010, 04:32:00 PM
Aftermarket distributor sounds reasonable. As far as the carb goes, the spacer is a good idea for a stock manifold (assuming on my part), but keep an eye on the mileage, and if it has gone to heck, she is overjetted, common on Holley carbs, so people don't get so much backfiring, but at the expense of gas mileage. After you determine your mileage has gone downhill, get a probe in the exhaust to determine how rich she really is, keeps one from guessing and fiddling so much.
Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 08, 2010, 05:24:57 PM
I'm running the M-1 Aluminum dual Plane Intake.. it is quite similar to the 383 Magnum Intake but makes considerable more power than the iron intake. I used to have it on my drag car before it made it's home here..

Stock the Holley runs 63's in the front and the plate on the secondaries should work out to around a 65 jet..

I hope the mileage doesn't go all to hell.. I was getting 16.5 mpg with the AFB..




Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 09, 2010, 04:16:56 PM
Well I got the Holley on and running... I hooked the vacuum advance to the full vacuum port and the idle went up and then started reving up and down....even adjutsing the idle circuit didn't help..

When I hooked the vacuum advance up to the timed port it was fine...

I'm having linkage issues when I'm using the 1 inch spacer so I might pull it off and run the holley right on the manifold.. The bottom end was a lot better with the spacer though..

The throttle cable isn't long enough and there isn't enough thread to set the kickdown lever...

I'll save the spacer for a future project..




Title: Miss
Post by: Guests on August 09, 2010, 05:00:35 PM
Stick the vacuum gage on her again and see if she cycles up and down. If there is a rhythmic up then down and back up, power valve is bad or wrong. To get the correct size, take the vacuum reading that is steady the most (the highest reading), divide by two and add two, and get that power valve number (16, is 8 plus 2 is a 10.5 power valve, etc.). Vacuum should be on ported, otherwise the advance works backwards, meaning it will be on full time all the time which is wrong at idle, hit the gas and vacuum drops and you lose the vacuum but may come back too quickly as rpm build. I seem to recall having to make a second bracket (or weld a one inch extention into the original cable holder that attaches to the intake manifold), essentially moving it up to a working angle.
Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 09, 2010, 05:33:10 PM
The cable is still not long enough .... grrr...

Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 10, 2010, 06:10:44 AM
I pulled the inch spacer off.. The I noticed that the shot was out of adjustment. I adjusted it to the limited but can not get the 0.015 clearance. I'm thinking that someone must have changed the stock adjustment on the shot cam.. grrrrrr...

The car is still acting the same as it did with the AFB... feels like a miss as I'm driving.. I guess it's time to check the plug wires, new points and cap...

It's nice to have no stumble from a dead stop.. but I hope my mileage doesn't go to crap running this holley ...




Title: Miss
Post by: Guests on August 10, 2010, 08:01:38 AM
It takes two 3/8ths or 7/1ths wrenches to turn the bolt/nut against the spring to adjust. One wrench just spins.
Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 10, 2010, 08:05:14 AM
I used two... I have done this before

Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 10, 2010, 08:35:26 AM
I just noticed that the crew and nut for the accelerator pump in upside down... no wonder I can't get the adjustment.. LOL Someone must have had it off at some point...

I'll fix that when I get home...


Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 10, 2010, 12:02:36 PM
Well I got the vacuum gauge hooked up again.. I have 15 in at idle in park, 13 in gear.. a bit lower than before...

The big change is that now I get 17 to 19 inches driving down the road at 55.. before I would only get 16 at the most... WOW

What do you think increased the vacuum like that?


Title: Miss
Post by: Guests on August 10, 2010, 02:14:49 PM
Better pull through the venturii themselves. Did adjusting the squirter help?

Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 10, 2010, 02:27:56 PM
I didn't get a chance to adjust it.. what I saw was during the drive home..

I might pull out the squirters this weekend . since they were playing with the accelerator pump I want to see if they put in large squirters.. these look pretty large. Any idea what size the stock one would be?


Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 25, 2010, 10:17:40 AM
Well.. the miss was the points.. I wore the piece that rides on the cam down and the points where barely opening. I put in a set of Bluestreak points that has a small piece of greased felt that runs on the cam. I also put a little bit of food grade grease on the cam ( just a thin layer) from the pizzeria to give it some extra lube.

Runs really good... what I thought was strange was that I had to reset the idle screws after I changed the points... weird..


Title: Miss
Post by: Snotty on August 25, 2010, 12:07:52 PM
Runs good and...
 
...smells like dinner!! (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 25, 2010, 12:23:07 PM
Let me take it back.. something else is wrong.. on the way home you could feel a spotter.. and when I got back in town I could here it miss again..

I'm gonna make sure the intake is tight and pull the plugs.. maybe take an ohm reading on the plug wires..


Title: Miss
Post by: Snotty on August 25, 2010, 02:18:44 PM
Without reading all previous posts, do you have a vacuum leak?  Do you have power brakes?  If so, is your booster completely sealed?  (Caps on the extra lines?)
Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on August 25, 2010, 02:24:42 PM

Wouldn't my vacuum gauge move around then?... When I'm going down the road at 50 mph it is steady at 16 in...( I have a gauge in the car)

I will check though... I curious what the rear plug on the passenger side looks like.. that was the one that fouled the last time I had a valley pan leak..

Keep the suggestions coming..

1965Windsor3612010-08-25 19:25:23
Title: Miss
Post by: Guests on August 26, 2010, 04:34:29 PM
Double check the points setting. They do settle at times.
Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on September 04, 2010, 09:58:31 AM
Well.. I pulled the plugs today to see if I see anything..

This is what I found..

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/th_DSC02600.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/Windsor/?action=view&current=DSC02600.jpg)

I turned out to be a loose intake bolt on the passenger font of the intake. I swear I checked those..

This is the second bolt that has come loose on this aluminum intake since I put it on..grrrrr..

For running a holley, the plug color is perfect..

One thing I did notice was until the engine warms up, the secondary boosters drip fuel, then it goes away when it is warm. I'm wondering why that would happen and if I should lower the float to compensate.


Title: Miss
Post by: Guests on September 04, 2010, 10:41:59 AM
Lower the float to compensate, it is just a hair high, it is vaporizing as it gets warmer and stops.
 
Do you have a flat washer and a lock washer under the bolts on the intake manifold? If not, make it happen, the flat washer saves the aluminum surface, the lock washer keeps her tight.
 
Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on September 07, 2010, 04:04:24 AM

I dropped the float.. but I can't seem to get it low enough to keep the fuel from coming out the site hole. I lowered it and put the plug back in.. It doesn't come through the boosters anymore. That's a good thing.

I pulled the needle and seat first to check for dirt and it was clean.

1965Windsor3612010-09-07 09:05:11
Title: Miss
Post by: Steve on September 07, 2010, 05:57:26 AM
Holleys. . . . .  Peeeeuuuuu
Title: Miss
Post by: Stan Paralikis on September 07, 2010, 07:17:41 AM

Quote from: POLARACO
Holleys. . . . .  Peeeeuuuuu
Holley any day....
Title: Miss
Post by: Steve on September 07, 2010, 08:49:22 AM
Quote from: Commando1
Quote from: POLARACO
Holleys. . . . .  Peeeeuuuuu

Dork
 
Junk
Title: Miss
Post by: Guests on September 07, 2010, 09:11:16 AM
By chance, is the float the black phenolic material or brass? Next thing to check is a sunk float, the phenolic ones can be contaminated and gain weight if you handle them with your fingers, the oil damages them in some manner, some fuel additives can affect them, too.
 
Nothing wrong with a Holley, just gotta be smarter than a carb! Dooh...
Title: Miss
Post by: Snotty on September 07, 2010, 09:53:23 AM
[/QUOTE]

That happens....
Title: Miss
Post by: Steve on September 07, 2010, 02:08:09 PM
Quote from: dana44
 
 
 
 
Einstien couldn't be smarter than a Holley carb.  How many times have I fixed problems with an Elderbrock?  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
Title: Miss
Post by: Leaburn Patey on September 07, 2010, 03:10:54 PM
Even a girl can tune an edelbrock..(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif)
Hey Steve you still got that pic of Sis working on Mobby's carb??
 
Title: Miss
Post by: Stan Paralikis on September 08, 2010, 03:54:16 AM

Quote from: POLARACO

Said the man who spends all his time trying to make his EFI work....
Title: Miss
Post by: Jason Goldsack on September 08, 2010, 04:18:54 AM
I would love to get EFI to work... no more adjusting.. all done by laptop..