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Techical Discussions => Tech- - ELECTRICAL => Topic started by: Scott on June 12, 2010, 02:47:07 PM

Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Scott on June 12, 2010, 02:47:07 PM
To preface: brand new alternator, battery and regulator.  The alternator has been working intermittenly  .  I took the alternator to the parts store to be tested and it passed.  I disconnected the top harness at the bulkhead (not certain if it's the engine to forward lamp harness) and disconnected the Fusible Link at the bulkhead (other leads run to the starter relay and horn relay).  I reconnected the Fusible Link and harness to the bulkhead and installed the alternator.  I fired her up and the alternator is now working.  My question is: what would cause the alternator to not charge and what does the Fusible Link have to do with it?  Here is a picture of the Fusuble Link and bulkhead area:

(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c206/rexus31/Reference%20Pics/FusibleLink.jpg)
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Steve on June 12, 2010, 03:57:28 PM
The fuesable link is the body protection.  I have to dig out my 65 harness, but I am pretty sure the link runs from the battery to that post on the block.  Then it comes back out to the black wire which goes to the alternator.
 
You better test that under a load and be sure you have a good contact.  Use a volt meter at the battery.  I have a funny feeling you have a bad connection.  Your moving it around made a connection, but was it a good one?  That's what we need to find out.  I would hate to see that car get ruined. 
 
The only other thing I can think of is there is corrosion in the harness.  The Blue wire that goes to the regulator, is branched off in the harness.  (Phew!) Then it continues to the ballast resistor.  65's had had a history of corroding at that point. That issue was from 61 to 69. That would also cause the regulator to flutter, that and a bad ground.  I know you don't want to do this, but may I suggest you bacj out the regulator bolts a tad and turn them back in snug again?  This is in case there is paint in the threads from painting the fire wall.
 
Where did you get that harness?  That is maticulassly clean.
 
I am JUST NOW starting on my 65.  1st trick is find a long enough drive shaft.  I guess I will need to get the correct shaft, since the one form the 68 is WAY too short.  SURPRISE!
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Scott on June 12, 2010, 04:49:42 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
The fuesable link is the body protection.  I have to dig out my 65 harness, but I am pretty sure the link runs from the battery to that post on the block.  Then it comes back out to the black wire which goes to the alternator.
 
You better test that under a load and be sure you have a good contact.  Use a volt meter at the battery.  I have a funny feeling you have a bad connection.  Your moving it around made a connection, but was it a good one?  That's what we need to find out.  I would hate to see that car get ruined. 
 
The only other thing I can think of is there is corrosion in the harness.  The Blue wire that goes to the regulator, is branched off in the harness.  (Phew!) Then it continues to the ballast resistor.  65's had had a history of corroding at that point. That issue was from 61 to 69. That would also cause the regulator to flutter, that and a bad ground.  I know you don't want to do this, but may I suggest you bacj out the regulator bolts a tad and turn them back in snug again?  This is in case there is paint in the threads from painting the fire wall.
 
Where did you get that harness?  That is maticulassly clean.
 


 
Should it go to the red or black wire on the inside?
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Steve on June 12, 2010, 05:23:17 PM
Not sure what you are asking me, but I think it's red to red and black to black.  I have to find my service manual and see.  That ought to be a trick. . . .   I do this stuff from memory. 


If the ammeter is working in the right direction, then you are fine.
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Scott on June 12, 2010, 05:27:01 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
Not sure what you are asking me, but I think it's red to red and black to black.  I have to find my service manual and see.  That ought to be a trick. . . .   I do this stuff from memory. 


If the ammeter is working in the right direction, then you are fine.


 
Although the wire is black, it is coming from a hot lead (starter relay) so I can only assume it would connect to the red Alternator gauge wire.  How does the voltage regulator ground?
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Steve on June 12, 2010, 05:40:59 PM
If memory serves me right, the black is the link.  I may have the colors backwards.  I can't get to the harness right now to verify it.
 
As I said on the C Bod, the mounting bolts are the ground.  That's why I told you to back the bolts out and run them in again. 
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Scott on June 12, 2010, 05:42:40 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
As I said on the C Bod, the mounting bolts are the ground.  That's why I told you to back the bolts out and run them in again. 




 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Steve on June 12, 2010, 05:53:20 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)

Not a problem.  Happens to me all the time
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Scott on June 12, 2010, 05:57:09 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
Where did you get that harness?  That is maticulassly clean.


 
I got the Engine Harness and Forward Lamp Harness from Bill Evans Wiring.  He rerpoduced new ones off my originals.  I also know a tech that works for M & H Electrical.  I gave him all of my other harnesses and he took all the original tape off, soaked them in some solution to soften them up and remove the tape residue, then retaped them.  They came out like brand new.  He also made me a reproduction positive battery cable.  This is a unique cable (being black) with a unique rubber grommet and heat sheild at the bottom.  It's a dead ringer for the original.
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Steve on June 12, 2010, 06:13:45 PM
I have a really nice harness. . .   Going to soak that in lanolin to soften it up and rewrap it too.  I have a dash harness too.  This one has been monkeyed with so I'll do the same there.
 
But I will need the starter and battery wire.  I have a bunch of the fasteners I took out of the 4 door in the tumbler now.  I tumble them in glass beads.  Then I clear the stuff that's supposed to be silver with a clear made for bare metal.  The look almost perfect when done.
 
But like I said, I just got started on it.
 
Your car is exceptionally detailed though.  You must be anel.  LOL
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Scott on June 12, 2010, 06:19:27 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
You must be anel.  LOL


 
I prefer "detail oriented"  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
It took a little longer to get things "just right" but in the end, the result was worth it.  The best part is: it drives awesome.
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Dan Cluley on June 12, 2010, 11:05:52 PM
This info is from the wire diagram in the FSM, I have not verified it on my car.
Under hood:
Black wire from the Alt goes straight to the bulkhead connector.
Red wire from the battery goes to starter relay
Fusible link goes from starter relay to the bulkhead connector
Dark blue wire from bulkhead connctor (spot B) to the voltage regulator and then on to the ballast resistor (this is the power feed from the ignition to the coil)
 
Under dash:
Red wire goes straight from bulkhead to the ammeter
Black wire goes from the bulkhead to the "main splice" (this is somewhere inside the underdash harness) then to the ammeter
The other wires from the "main splice" branch off to power the fuse box, circuit breaker, and the ignition switch 
Dark blue wire from ignition switch to bulkhead connector (spot B)
 
 
Now, as I understand this, when the ignition is on, 12v (more or less) feeds from the main splice through the ignition switch, through the bulkhead connector to the voltage regulator.  Depending on the exact amount of that voltage the regulator then feeds more or less power into the alternator field (through a green wire) controlling the voltage output of the alternator.
 
Based on all of that, what I would suggest is using a volt meter to check for any unexpected power losses.
 
I would unplug the blue single wire from the ballast resistor, turn off any accessoires, and turn the ignition switch on.
 
Measure the voltage between ground and the positive post on the battery.  Then measure between ground and the various points in the circuit (the post on the starter relay, the red and black connections on the bulkhead connector, the black wire on the back of the alternator, and the blue wire that feeds into the voltage regulator)  These should all be roughly the same as the battery voltage.  There will be some drop just due to the resistance of the wire, but a major difference would indicate a problem.
 
----------------------
 
On the ground side of things, to make this all work:
 
The battery needs a good ground connection to the body (wire to the engine block, then strap from the block to the bulkhead)
 
The alternator needs a good connection through it's mounting bolts to the engine block
 
The voltage regulator needs a good connection through its mounting screws to the bulkhead.
 
--------------------------------------------

 
Based on all of that, and what you described doing, my guess would be that there is either an intermittent issue with the alternator or the regulator that have fixed themselves for the moment, or the alternator has a better ground connection after being reinstalled.
 
A bad connection with that bulkhead connector or with the fusible link would cause the alternator to not charge, but they would also cause problems with the car starting and running!
D Cluley2010-06-13 04:19:37
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Scott on June 13, 2010, 06:16:03 AM
Thanks for the info Dan.  I'll check the voltages.
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Steve on June 13, 2010, 07:19:42 AM
Thanks Dan. . .you've had time to study these, and have had them apart before.  I haven't had one apart in 30 years.  Until now
 
You are right on with the process.  I just wasn't sure of the colors.
 
Rex
Use the voltage regulator for a ground a few times.  You should see 12.5, (+ or- .3) with a good battery and engine off.  Running, you should see 13.5 (+ or-) with a light load and probably 13 with the lights on. (+ or- again)  Rev it slightly to be sure it comes up.
 
I'm still suspicious of a connection there.
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Scott on June 20, 2010, 06:24:15 PM
Okay.  I'm at a loss.  I checked the voltages per Dan and all was well and everything was working.  Drove the car quite a bit yesterday without incident.  I started the car this evening to go for a cruise and the Alternator is not charging.  I checked all the grounds and they are solid.  I removed the Voltage Regulator, disconnected and reconnected the Engine Harness, Fusible Link and Alternator wire at the bulkhead.  Fired her up and it still is registering on the Discharge side of the Alternator Gauge.  Thinking the gauge could be faulty, I checked the voltage at the battery with the car running and it read 12.3 volts.  Should be close to 14.  I have NO CLUE what the issue could be.  I love electrical issues.
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Ken on June 22, 2010, 01:18:42 PM
Just a guess, but it sounds like something (stator most likely) has grounded in the alternator.  Get a newer alternator with the 2 field wires and make a lead to ground one of them and be done with it.

Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Steve on June 22, 2010, 02:31:45 PM
I am leaning towards what Mosey is saying at this point.
 
Read the voltage off the back of the Alternator, on and off.
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Steve on June 22, 2010, 02:35:12 PM
Quote from: Moesy
   Get a newer alternator with the 2 field wires and make a lead to ground one of them and be done with it.
 
They are both the same alternator Ken.  It could be a intermittant rectifier too.  Or!  Here's a thoyght, the 2nd pole is grounded poorly on the alternator. . .
 
If you are reading the same voltage's as you work your way back to the alternator, then the wiring is good.
 
It could be a flakey regulater too.
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2010, 08:52:10 AM
Okay guys, I don't know what to do.  With the key in the "On" position and the single blue wire disconnected from the Ballast Resistor, I checked the voltages and all were 11.98-12.0 volts at the blue wire(s) going to the Voltage Regulator, both screw in terminals at the Bulkhead, Starter Relay, and at the black wire at the Alternator.  I also removed the Alternator and mounting braket to make sure the mounting surfaces were all clean.  I even swapped out the Voltage Regulator.  I checked the engine ground and that is solid.  I checked the Bulkhead under the dash as well as the conections at the Alternator Gauge.  No dice.  The alternator is still not charging!  I know if I take the Alternator to the parts store for a test it will pass.  Been there, done that.  What am I missing?
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Steve on June 26, 2010, 09:20:16 AM
I gotta ask you, because I went JUST through this with Polaraco.  Granted my charging system is controlled by the ECM.
 
Does it charge when the car is cold, then stops when hot?  OR!  It would delay coming up from an idle when it was working?
 
Look at the field windings through the vents.  See if you see any chared coils.  If you have been across the whole system, then it has to be the alternator.   I had a week old rebuilt start doing that on Polaraco.  It was delayed, would only slightly inch up until I was going 1500 RPM, them BLAM!  14.5 volts.  When I looked in the alternator, I saw some chared windings.  I replaced it and problems gone.
 
Maybe, unless you have a defective wire in the harness.  The only way to do that is to clip your meter on the ends and wiggle the harness around.  I've seen that before with a new harness.  The wire manufacturer had a blip in the copper.  You'll need to do a continuity between the regulator and alternator on the green wire.
 
POLARACO2010-06-26 14:23:04
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2010, 09:30:05 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
I gotta ask you, because I went JUST through this with Polaraco.  Granted my charging system is controlled by the ECM.
 
Does it charge when the car is cold, then stops when hot?  OR!  It would delay coming up from an idle when it was working?
 
Look at the field windings through the vents.  See if you see any chared coils.  If you have been across the whole system, then it has to be the alternator.   I had a week old rebuilt start doing that on Polaraco.  It was delayed, would only slightly inch up until I was going 1500 RPM, them BLAM!  14.5 volts.  When I looked in the alternator, I saw some chared windings.  I replaced it and problems gone.
 
Maybe, unless you have a defective wire in the harness.  The only way to do that is to clip your meter on the ends and wiggle the harness around.  I've seen that before with a new harness.  The wire manufacturer had a blip in the copper.  You'll need to do a continuity between the regulator and alternator on the green wire.
 



 
Nothing looks charred and there is no intermitten charging.  With the car running I see 11.99-12.0 volts at the battery and at the back of the Alternator.  Judging my the location of the Alternator Gauge needle I don't think the voltage is increasing with RPM.  How would I do a continuity test on the Field Wire?  To test, couldn't I just disconnect the Field Wire at the Alternator and the Voltage Regulator and run an external wire to both?
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2010, 09:47:05 AM
I believe it is the Field Wire in my new Bill Evans harness!  I disconnected the Field Wire from both the Voltage Regulator and the Alternator and ran an external wire to both and now it's charging.  WTF????  Oh well, looks like I found the issue; I hope.  I guess I will take the harness apart and find exactly where the issue lies.
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2010, 12:38:54 PM
This gets better and better.  I took my harness to a buddy who is a tech at M&H.  Obviously, we had no continuity between the Voltage Regulator connector and the Alternator conector.  He took the black plastic housing off the Alternator connector and about 3/4 of the wire jacket was crimped with only about 1/4 of the actual wire making a connection.  He put a new connector on and now its got continuity.  I haven't installed it on the car yet but it should work.  What are the odds?
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2010, 01:29:10 PM
I just reinstalled the harness and everything is working as it should.  Thanks to everyone that helped me out with this issue.
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Steve on June 26, 2010, 06:04:17 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
 
 
Maybe, unless you have a defective wire in the harness.  The only way to do that is to clip your meter on the ends and wiggle the harness around.  I've seen that before with a new harness.  The wire manufacturer had a blip in the copper.  You'll need to do a continuity between the regulator and alternator on the green wire.


 
I'd be yellin my head off. . .  You should talk to the people you got the harness from.  Or was that them???
 
That was a good idea, since everything else was exhausted. . .   There was nothing else!  I never discounted the harness, but I didn't think you would believe me.  Ofcourse, I wasn't there either.
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2010, 07:08:06 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
Quote from: POLARACO
 
 
Maybe, unless you have a defective wire in the harness.  The only way to do that is to clip your meter on the ends and wiggle the harness around.  I've seen that before with a new harness.  The wire manufacturer had a blip in the copper.  You'll need to do a continuity between the regulator and alternator on the green wire.


 
I'd be yellin my head off. . .  You should talk to the people you got the harness from.  Or was that them???
 



 
I got the harness from Bill Evans.  At least it's fixed and I can move on.
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Steve on June 26, 2010, 07:12:36 PM
Another one for the Arkives
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Dan Cluley on June 26, 2010, 07:13:22 PM
Glad you found it.  Intermittent electrical problems are the worst!!
 
I've had mine almost 8 years now, and when stuff like this comes up, I'm still learning things.
 
 
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Steve on June 26, 2010, 07:49:49 PM
It's easier for me to be standing there looking at it.  As you know, auto electrics are a sleeper for me.  A BSEE doesn't mean squat in these cases.  Ask me to diagnose a 5000 volt motor problem.  That's when the engineering comes in.
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Steve on June 26, 2010, 07:52:42 PM
Guys. . .this is just  a general statement.
 
Don't be afraid of auto electrics.  It's allot of common sense on these cars.  The newer ones with total computer control are the same crap.  You just have the computer controlling it.  If you have a wiring diagram, you should be able to isolate a problem easily. 
 
Most people look at a problem like Rex's and run like Jack Rabbits.  My hats off to him for being so tenatious.
Title: Weird Alternator Gremlin - 1965 Chrysler 300
Post by: Scott on June 27, 2010, 06:12:36 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
My hats off to him for being so tenatious.


 
Thanks, man.  Tenacity has been the name of the game with this car.  It has fought me tooth and nail about every step of the way.  I'm not one to step away from a challenge.  Parts are parts and if something is broken it can be fixed.