MoparFins

Members Projects => MEMBERS Project Cars in Progress => Topic started by: Steve on March 18, 2010, 08:24:58 PM

Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 18, 2010, 08:24:58 PM
We have several 70 degree days coming, so it's time to start the swap.
 
"I'm goin in" as Stan put it.  I have some work to put out yet, but this will be an easy one.  Once I have the 5.2 out I have a short list.
 
**  Put a ding in the exhaust pipe near the T Bar on the right side  10 minutes
**  Remove the bolts from the fiberglass heater cover on the bottom.  I don't need it so out it goes.  5 minutes
**  Weld the balance weights on to the converter 30 minutes
**  Clean up a few minor wiring issues on the engine harness (Tach feed) 10 minutes
 


 
The greatest feeling in the world is when I see those Dowel pins on the trans disappear and have the 4 top trans bolts tightened.  Once the starter is in, she'll fly
 
POLARACO2010-03-23 20:07:35
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on March 19, 2010, 12:14:53 AM
I had a few engine exhaust pipes and some headers that would hit the torsion bar also!

Good luck with your swap Steve!
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Herman on March 19, 2010, 02:10:38 AM
Finally!
Good with the bigblock-swap Steve. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)


(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)


Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Leaburn Patey on March 19, 2010, 03:13:03 AM
[/QUOTE]
 MORE POWER!!
(http://blog.mrhacks.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/tim-toolman-taylor-288x300.jpg)
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 19, 2010, 04:18:05 AM
Truthfully, I wish I could be there.  Godspeed, my son.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 19, 2010, 08:32:48 AM
Quote from: Rockwerx
I had a few engine exhaust pipes and some headers that would hit the torsion bar also!


Thanks Guys
 
Stu, when putting in a small block, these Headman Pick Up headers are perfect.  They vent down out the back.  The angle floolws the contour of the floor board and makes it real easy to make connections.  But they are only available for small blocks.  Most headers I've scene have the collectors at the bottom, near the T Bars and are really tight.  But with these, you go up to them with your pipe.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 19, 2010, 01:44:32 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/Teardown.jpg)
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 19, 2010, 02:00:11 PM
I couldn't hear any swearing from here so it must have went well?
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 19, 2010, 02:14:47 PM
If the weather holds, I'll have the new block in Sunday.  Then I have to just put it back together.
 
Found #1 and #2 Injector appear to be bad. . . The new engine came with 8 brand new ones.  These have close to 175,000 on them so I think it's time.
 
Found a few hidden problems in the wiring I am going to work on this evening.  I have to wait for the ground to dry before I crawl under the car, so the bottom will be tomorrow.
 
Lots to do!  Later
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on March 19, 2010, 04:06:19 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
Quote from: Rockwerx
I had a few engine exhaust pipes and some headers that would hit the torsion bar also!


Thanks Guys
 
Are they coated also? I have used some of the shorty Hedmans for other engines and they worked great...I wanted lots of clearance in one of my off road machines so that style was perfect. They make a tough header that will take some abuse and last.
 
Look at your picture reminded me how close the headers run to the steering column. I broke an engine mount in an A body 340 4 speed with headers on it years ago. When it happened I was turning and the engine tilted and locked up the steering...panic moment!
 
Keep up with the pics of your progress! Good luck with your project! (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 19, 2010, 04:47:47 PM
No, I bought Chrome ones.  Duh.  I amgoing to paint them with some of that 2000 degree paint.  Of coarse I am going to mount them before I drop the motor in.  Should take 10% of the time than in the car. . .
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 19, 2010, 04:59:01 PM
OK  I found the picture.
 
I had to modify the right side so it could clear the control arm.
 
They'll be high heat silver tomorrow. . .  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/Righthead4-6.jpg)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/Headnew2.jpg)
 
POLARACO2010-03-19 21:03:26
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 21, 2010, 05:28:14 PM
Phew!


Bell and bottom are all done.  Rain tomorrow, but I can get the intake ready.  Have to hook up the Exhaust.
 
Decided not to do the headers.  It will look way neater int here with the logs and they flow just about as good as the headers do.  I'll use the headers on the 68 instead.  That's getting a 360 as well.
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/52out.jpg)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/59TQweights.jpg)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/59install1.jpg)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/59install2.jpg)
 
POLARACO2010-03-21 21:30:08
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on March 22, 2010, 03:14:33 AM
Looks good Steve! You got a lot done! What is wrong with your headers? They look in good condition from the pics. I have done some mods to the collector on that type of header in the past to help them breath a bit better. I can tell you how if you want to use them still.
 
Good luck with your swap! Hopefully it won't rain on your project!
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 22, 2010, 04:58:20 AM
Remind me again why you're doing this?
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: firedome on March 22, 2010, 05:09:21 AM
I like that blue!!

Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 22, 2010, 06:28:30 AM
Quote from: Commando1
Remind me again why you're doing this?


 
To teach you a lesson.
 
The 315 was a tad light in the Polaraco, even with the EFI.  So I decided, since I am changing the engine, I may as well get what I can out of it.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 22, 2010, 08:39:56 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
Quote from: Commando1
Remind me again why you're doing this?


 
To teach you a lesson.
 
I wonder what he means by that...(http://www.massmopar.com/yabb/Smilies/idontknow.gif)
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 22, 2010, 04:24:25 PM
If all goes to plan, I should have this up and running by Thursday.  The rain is here, but I am detailing the intake and other parts.  Not much time needed to put the top together.  But I will let it sit until I come back from Dominic and Rogers.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Leaburn Patey on March 23, 2010, 02:59:28 AM
Who's silver Ram? Where's the red one?

Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 23, 2010, 07:15:44 AM
That's Jon's.
 
I had to put an intake in it for him
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Snotty on March 23, 2010, 11:38:40 AM
Looking good Steve!
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 23, 2010, 04:06:23 PM
And we progress
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/59install3.jpg)
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Tom Dawson on March 23, 2010, 06:17:30 PM
Looking very good Stevo
Tom


Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 23, 2010, 06:30:56 PM
Thanks Tom. . .   Let's see how it runs.  Probably going to pop it Thursday
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stitcherbob on March 23, 2010, 09:23:39 PM
the blue looks nice, especially on the valvecovers(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)

Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on March 24, 2010, 06:33:49 AM
What kind of intake manifold it that? I bet you can't wait to fire it up!
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 24, 2010, 06:35:30 AM
Yeah Bob. . .   I agree.

And you wanted me to paint it silverPOLARACO2010-03-24 10:41:30
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 24, 2010, 09:38:19 AM
Quote from: Rockwerx
What kind of intake manifold it that? I bet you can't wait to fire it up!
 
Thats a Hughes Air Gap Prototype.  They introduced it 3 years ago.  There were 2 upgrades to it.  One I did here and the other was that adaptor I polished on the other thread.
 
No more leaking belly pan in that beer Barrell they had as a factory unit.  Although, I have the corrected version which came with the motor. 
 
Hughes turned the injectors to point into the cylinders a bit more.  Gave better economy and torque.  Uses the factory rail
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on March 24, 2010, 04:07:11 PM
And those exhaust manifolds look great, too!
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stitcherbob on March 24, 2010, 04:28:02 PM

Quote from: POLARACO
Yeah Bob. . .   I agree.

And you wanted me to paint it silver


that was before I knew you had those maggy valvecovers!

Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 24, 2010, 05:11:59 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/59install4.jpg)




 
I have to say it looks a heck of allot cleaner and organized with the blue then the black
 
 
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Leaburn Patey on March 24, 2010, 05:20:07 PM
Looks good!! Almost ready to fire up??
make sure you video the fire up if you can

Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 25, 2010, 04:03:55 AM
Suit up, men...
 
(http://www.imcom-europe.army.mil/sites/about/img/BombSuit.jpg)
 
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on March 25, 2010, 06:43:52 AM
It sure looks a lot different than when it rolled off of the line Steve! A video is always cool when you first fire them up. I will be interested in hearing it run...especially interested in how your cam choice will work. Did your last engine run a roller cam? If not you are going to love the difference! She should snap pretty good off the line with your combination.


 
Good luck! Hope you don't need the bomb squad!
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Snotty on March 25, 2010, 09:26:00 AM
Yes, agreed on the video.
 
You can see the first firing of our Gremlin in the Gremlin Update thread.
 
(Total plug, I have no shame....)
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 25, 2010, 12:25:34 PM
forgetaboutit
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 25, 2010, 01:11:35 PM
No Start.  It's possible I have the wrong pushrods
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 25, 2010, 04:12:52 PM
My ego is deflated and this is a first for me after all the engines I have done.
 
I have spark and fuel, but the engine spins over too fast like the valve timing is off.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif)  
 
Can't find my compression gauge, what else is new.  I just saw it a few weeks ago here somewhere.  Between myself and all my little helpers, this place is a disaster again.
 
Ed, I'm waiting for you to call me
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on March 25, 2010, 04:50:47 PM
Take a deep breath and relax for a bit...it will help you think about the problems. Maybe take the time to reorganize your tools. Is it possible your distributor is set wrong? Did you use adjustable rocker shaft arms for this build? You mention that you think you may have used the wrong pushrod length...shorter ones required with the roller cam? If it makes correct compression that will narrow your trouble shoot list down a lot.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 25, 2010, 05:16:21 PM
Nope. . .We checked it, and rechecked it over and over.  Makes no sense. 
 
I installed the gear and chain and can vividly recall what I did.  A budy of mine, who is real good, stopped by and he started to fool with it and confirmed I had the chain right.  Dots matched, intake and exhaust were closed.  Then he confirmed I had compression as he reset the motor to TDC.
 
Sunday, I set the pump gear and distributor.  Pump gear points at #1 and the rotor points to #1 on the breaker plate (Remember, this is EFI)  Turned the engine one turn and the disty was 180* from setpoint, and #1 exhaust valve was open.
 
I'll tell ya, it spins like it has no compression.  I think I know where my compression gauge is, I have to go over there and beat the Shtuff outa him for not bringing it back.  Doint that at 10:00 when he gets home from work.
 
When I take a plug out and put my finger over the hole, I am getting a push, but it doesn't seem like allot.  The vacuum gauge flutters slightly and you can feel vacuum on the intake.
 
It has three of us, all of whom have done numerous engines, baffled.
 
I'm watching NCIS.  If it doesn't rain, I'll stick the gauge in #1 and see what I am getting.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on March 25, 2010, 08:59:51 PM
Your short duration roller cam should make lots of compression. I was going to suggest you put your finger over the spark plug hole! lol Does it have adjustable rocker arms? You could check the preload on the lifters. If the pushrods are too long it would open the valves all the time would it not? Especially if you are using non adjustable rocker arms.
 
I recall normal lifter preload is around .030" give or take .010". I had to figure out my pushrod length after I assembled my engine because of some retrofits . More on that later if you need to learn how.
 
Need to know if it is making proper compression.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stitcherbob on March 25, 2010, 09:22:48 PM

I'll bet you'll have to put a degree wheel on it and determine the correct cam phasing for your aftermarket camshaft....lining up the dots doesn't always mean that it's installed right per the manufacturer's recommendations......

http://flag.blackened.net/mopar/camchart.html (http://flag.blackened.net/mopar/camchart.html)

http://www.carcraft.com/howto/116_0701_how_to_degree_a_camshaft/index.html (http://www.carcraft.com/howto/116_0701_how_to_degree_a_camshaft/index.html)

http://cranecams.com/pdf/803.pdf (http://cranecams.com/pdf/803.pdf)



stitcherbob2010-03-26 01:33:50
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 26, 2010, 05:09:40 AM
Back-to-basics engine troubleshooting 101:
 
Follow the spark trail.  Everything 110% copastetic?
Damn EFI.  I know zip about them.  Check your sensor/pick-up/ whatever you call it thingamabob.
 
 
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 26, 2010, 07:45:03 AM
Quote from: Rockwerx
Your short duration roller cam should make lots of compression. I was going to suggest you put your finger over the spark plug hole! lol Does it have adjustable rocker arms? You could check the preload on the lifters. If the pushrods are too long it would open the valves all the time would it not? Especially if you are using non adjustable rocker arms.
 
I recall normal lifter preload is around .030" give or take .010". I had to figure out my pushrod length after I assembled my engine because of some retrofits . More on that later if you need to learn how.
 

Yeah Stewart.  I checked the preload again.  At least 30.  I primed the heck out of the  enigne while spinning it through to pump up the lifters some more.  Plus the lifters soaked, holes up for over two weeks.  That aint it.  I was wrong.
 
Ed, Dana44, and I talked for about and hour about it last night.  Thank you ED!  The only parts I did not reuse from the 5.2 were the injectors.  I used the new aledged new ones in the beer barrel.  It's possible they are no good at all.  But I know the fuel rail is full of fuel.
 
Ed seems to think the low compression is due to the fact this is a brand new motor.  could be, but when hand turning, it felt more dramatic.  
 
POLARACO2010-03-26 11:46:43
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 26, 2010, 07:50:33 AM
Thanks Bob, but that's not it at all.  If anything, I should have more compression.
 
TJ and I went over this motor several times to be sure all the timing is on the mark.  That and when I put the distributor and pump gear in, I double checked it again. 
 
The timing gear points at #1 Cylinder.  The distributor #1 points at #8.  When we rotaed the engine 360*, the dist was 180* and the #1 exhaust valve was open.
 
It doesn't get better than that
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 26, 2010, 02:02:05 PM
Well it's official sports fans.  For the first time, with all the engines I have done over the years, I screwed up.
 
Found 2 problems.
 
All 8 injectors were stuck.  I put the 5.2injectors.
 
BUT!  I bent all the exhaust push rods.  Oh Oh
 
 
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Ken on March 26, 2010, 02:56:41 PM
oh no!!! (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif)  Sorry to hear about the bent push rods, Steve.  that sux big time :(

Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on March 26, 2010, 02:58:45 PM
Yikes, not good. Wrong parts or out of sync? Were the valves hitting the pistons to cause the rods to bend?
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on March 26, 2010, 04:40:54 PM
Yeah, how did that manage to occur? Ain't no way a less than .500 lift cam would be able to do that, so was there a touching or something? I am pretty sure the ratio wasn't too great, so talk to us.
 
Enquiring minds would like to know, and see, as far as the injectors go, you just never know if NOS parts are bad when not hermetically sealed or in a controlled environment.
 
Still curious about these pushrods being bent.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 26, 2010, 04:47:48 PM
According to Hughes, that cam needs to be tuned in manually.  This is not a dot to dot cam.
 
The good news is the cylinders seem to hold a leak down.  At least on the even bank.  A buddy of mine has the timing tools for the cam, he's coming over Sunday.  I can steal the push rods out of the 5.2 to close it up.
 
I have to fix my leak down hose because it leaks, but I don't feel/hear anything going on at the intake or the exhaust.  I need to take my left exhaust manifold off because I can't get to the discharge with some cigarette smoke to chack for drafts.
 
But you can just tell
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on March 26, 2010, 05:53:10 PM
I am a little upset by this happening myself. I thought Hughes was a little better company than this, any cam should be capable of dropping in and two dots lined up without a problem (so the question comes up, did you have multiple keyways for the cam and go too far advanced or retarded?). Your cam card says 111degrees centerline, so there is a little bit of bleed-off (cams are usually around 107ish, but that is more performance vice mileage and bottom end power centerline). It will be interesting to know how far off this 111 degrees you are.
 
Like I said last night, check the injectors (good call on my part), and like I think I questioned was the cam timing (dot to dot should have been good, but it wasn't).
 
Standing by for more results.
Ed
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 26, 2010, 06:46:14 PM
Quote from: dana44
I am a little upset by this happening myself. I thought Hughes was a little better company than this, any cam should be capable of dropping in and two dots lined up without a problem (so the question comes up, did you have multiple keyways for the cam and go too far advanced or retarded?). Your cam card says 111degrees centerline, so there is a little bit of bleed-off (cams are usually around 107ish, but that is more performance vice mileage and bottom end power centerline). It will be interesting to know how far off this 111 degrees you are.
 
Like I said last night, check the injectors (good call on my part), and like I think I questioned was the cam timing (dot to dot should have been good, but it wasn't).
 
Standing by for more results.
 
I was a quite a bit surprised myself.  The cam only has one key in it.  The gear however is the standard multi.  I'll find out tomorrow when I get the front off the motor.  Good thing I have anther can of paint.  LOL
 
As far as the injectors are concerned, they were all stuck.  The coils are good, but the plungers are stuck with old varnish.  I would imagine if I soaked them in some laquar thinner, I could free them up.  But I got 8 new ones coming.  I did flush them out with some 2+2 before I installed them, but I guess they need some ultrasound cleaning.  Maybe I'll use my wifes jewery cleaner.  LOL
 
I found a deal on them, I got some 30 Pound per hour injectors for 200 bucks delivered.  Looked like someone was cleaning out some inventory.  Found them, of all places, Amaxon.  They are high performance injectors.  I'll see if I can find the link
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 26, 2010, 06:47:13 PM
By the way
 
Bob. . . You hit that one on the head I guess.  Good call.  That was my first instinct too when I heard it spin.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on March 26, 2010, 07:01:39 PM
[/QUOTE]
 
I was a quite a bit surprised myself.  The cam only has one key in it.  The gear however is the standard multi.  I'll find out tomorrow when I get the front off the motor.  Good thing I have anther can of paint.  LOL
 
As far as the injectors are concerned, they were all stuck.  The coils are good, but the plungers are stuck with old varnish.  I would imagine if I soaked them in some laquar thinner, I could free them up.  But I got 8 new ones coming.  I did flush them out with some 2+2 before I installed them, but I guess they need some ultrasound cleaning.  Maybe I'll use my wifes jewery cleaner.  LOL
 
[/QUOTE]

I wonder if the old molasses would clean them up?
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stitcherbob on March 26, 2010, 07:43:14 PM

I would stand the injectors up and soak just the tips in Berkbile 2+2, and put an eyedropper full in the tops to break up the inner gunk....don't let any get into the body or electronics.

I figured the cam timing because you said loss of compression and that would point to the phasing being off. Hi-Perf cams bug me when they end up like this.....they should sell special  cam gears to go with the modified cams, but they don't(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif)

stitcherbob2010-03-26 23:45:10
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 26, 2010, 07:59:43 PM
I thought about it Bob. . .But I am just going to throw them in a round baggie and call it quits on those.  Beisdes. I could smell the stale gas in them after I introduced fress gas again.  It will take a long time to free them up.
 
Molasas?  LOL  Is that like sugar in the gas tank?  LOL
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on March 26, 2010, 09:25:11 PM
I figure if it gets the rust off the ring gear and stuff pictures the way it did, should work on them, too. Not like it would do any harm if it doesn't work, does it? Not like you can take them apart and clean them as such, so what the heck?
 
Still bugged by the cam though. I have put together over 30 cams at least over the year, and the only time I had a problem, once, was a TRW cam back in the early 80s that had a bad grind on it, but it just ran bad, but not like this. This is just bad all the way around. I would assume, as I have seen in the past, that the different teeth were still marked properly so I could tell if I were advancing or retarding from stock marks on the cam gear itself. Don't tell me you had some Chinese piece that wasn't marked or something like that?
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 27, 2010, 03:05:32 AM
That really really sux, Steve.  I'd have gone and killed a few Steel Reserves but you jumped right back in.  Attaboy.
 
OK.  I'm confused.
The pushrods are bent.
And Hughes says it's because you installed it the way you're supposed to.
Uh-uh.  Bull.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stitcherbob on March 27, 2010, 04:48:18 AM
These are roller lifter motors....maybe the pushrods were mislabled and were for a regular LA motor and not a Maggy?

Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 27, 2010, 06:53:59 AM
No. . .they are the ones that came out of the motor. 
 
The valves on LA's are head lubed.  The magnums are pushrod lubed.  Meaning they have holes in the centers
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on March 27, 2010, 08:33:00 AM
So you believe that the cam is so much out of phase that it bottomed the exhaust vales on the pistons which in turn bent the push rods?
 
I would be pretty ticked at the cam manufacturer or timing gear manufacturer depending on which one is out of wack. I have not ever had this type of problem with my engine buildups...especially with a street oriented type of camshaft...usually they are plug and play.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 27, 2010, 12:44:00 PM
Ummm........ I just had a brain fart.
What ratio rockers did you end up using?
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 27, 2010, 02:52:13 PM
Quote from: Rockwerx
So you believe that the cam is so much out of phase that it bottomed the exhaust vales on the pistons which in turn bent the push rods?
 



 
It's my fault.  I didn't read the distructions.  The cam had to be phased and I didn't bother to do that.  Apparently, a normal cam as you and I know it, is not what they do at Hughes.  But I couldn't find what I wanted anywhere without allot of BS or waiting 8 weeks.
 
I am sorry to say I fudged up and it's entirely my fault.  It's aff about 2 teeth.
 
Quote from: Commando1
Ummm........ I just had a brain fart.
 
I used the stock 1.6's Stan.   I didn't put the rollers in yet, but I will when the dust settles and I get my bills paid for this job.  I have over 2 grand into this motor and care not to spend any more right now.
 
Well!  Now that that is over with. . . .
 
The good news is, all the cylinders have 125 PSI compression across the board, dry.  Wet takes them up to 150.
 
I have a buddy coming over tomorrow to set the cam for me, and could probably have it running late tomorrow.  I stole the push rods I needed out of the old motor, saved the gaskets, and it's all back together again.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 27, 2010, 03:21:13 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
Quote from: Commando1
  
I used the stock 1.6's
I thought 1.5 was stock...
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stitcherbob on March 27, 2010, 03:42:51 PM
make sure the other pushrods are open (clean) for oiling

Stan gets his bomb suit ready......


Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: glen cyr on March 27, 2010, 05:08:25 PM
The 1.6 ratio is stock on the magnums and you can even move up to 1.7's, although you maybe getting into playing russian roulette without checking piston to valve clearance and problems with coil bind. 1.5 ratio is stock on the LA style small blocks. Good to see you got it figured out steve. It takes alot to bend those pushrods as they are hardened.
 
Glen
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on March 27, 2010, 06:24:53 PM
I think I remember saying check the piston to valve clearance, but it wouldn't have been a correct reading because the cam was in the wrong location anyway, so maybe it was a good fact the pushrods bent and you learned a little bit about Hughes cam cutters. Not really sure how a billet core can be reground smaller than stock (your profile literally sits inside the stock camshaft, bottom side was removed to add the lift, durations are shorter than stock), so I just don't know how they could have cut it so it was two whole teeth off (that's about 30 degrees out of wack, an awful lot for a regrind). 
 
Take all the pushrods and verify they are OK by rolling them down a glass sheet, wabbles will be noticeable quickly. Keep at it, almost there.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 27, 2010, 06:42:53 PM
Yup Yup and Yup
 
Replaced all the bent exhaust rods.  They are obviously bent.  The intakes were perfect.
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/BentPR.jpg)
 
Glen, these are not hardened.  Thank goodness.  Hardened would be an upgrade, which this motor may never see.
 
I am going to stay with the 1.6.  It's not worth the risk at this point.  But I will be upgrading to roller rockers in time.  Makes too much sense.
 
I have another 360 that I will be doing this too all over again.  Except the raised dome pistons.  I am thinking about converting that to rollers as well.  That's the one I have planned for the 68 Fury.
 
I guess this explains the hard spots I was talking about.  I suspect I may have started to bent the push rods a bit on the engine stand.  A considerable amout of torque is transmitted through the engine.  I serously doubt any significant damage was done to the pistons.  
 
POLARACO2010-03-28 13:06:32
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on March 27, 2010, 09:13:40 PM
Yep, boviously bent! I am surprised you didn't see them this way before the intake was put on. Anyway, thank God for a weak point and slow hard turning over. Get her dialed in properly, bet they won't touch after that.  How did you figure it was about two teeth off?
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 28, 2010, 05:39:13 AM
Seat-0-DEE-Pants Guesstimate.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 28, 2010, 12:04:46 PM
We went ove this thing with the degree wheel twice.  Everyone who was intimantly involved, hands on, all saw the same thing.  It fell right back in the same place it was when we took it apart.
 
%@%^$#&^%$&^#%$#!#@!%$ (http://mailto:%@%$#&%$&#%$#!#@!%$)
 
Now what?  It makes no sense at all.  It came right back to Dot to Dot.
 
I'm going to get a 2* key for a magnum, everything we had was for an LA.  But I am willing to bet this cam is cut wrong.  It could be the lobes are reversed.  But that didn't make any sense either!
 
POLARACO2010-03-28 17:08:10
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on March 28, 2010, 12:48:06 PM
Sounds correct...but you have to know for sure that your cam is in phase. Do you have special plug or a way to determine the exact top dead center of number 1 piston?
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 28, 2010, 03:53:54 PM
We retimed the whole thing again.  I have to get a 2* key for the cam, and we'll see.  But yes, we know when it's on top.  Give or take 1/2 a degree
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 28, 2010, 05:57:14 PM
This is annoying the crap outa me.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on March 28, 2010, 06:45:14 PM
Look at the cam profile and sun of a gun, compared to the rest of the cams Hughes has, yeah, they did cut the duration on the exhaust too late. Here's what you have.
              intake   exhaust
OPEN   -15BTC    39BBC
CLOSE 27ABC    -15ATC
 
Compared all the cams from Hughes, -10ATC is the latest exhaust valves are closed on any roller cam, even comparing the LA cams, this number should be closer to zero. I totally missed this, sorry, fifteen degrees after top center is way too late. Since you have the dial indicator and the degree wheel, check out to make sure these numbers are correct for opening and closing, but advancing the key 4degrees may be enough. You want to get the exhaust to -11ATC, which will also move everything else ahead 4degrees. It will work, 2degrees won't be enough.
 
Stick this four degrees advance into the dyno and see what happens.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 28, 2010, 08:17:46 PM
So you say go 4 degrees?  I can do that, but once it's in, I'm committed.  That would have me at 112*  instead of the 110* with the 2* key.  Any more than that and I'm asking for trouble.  To review, the center line on this cam is 111*
 
Hemi John used the Cam Tag to set it up so hopefully it's right.  I have all the rockers loose except for #1.  We set the timing up and it's just sitting there waiting for a keyway.  I am going to leave them loose and turn it over to see if it stalls like it did before.  The intake should start to open immediately at this point.  He builds plenty of higher end stuff than this.  Never heard of any going bad.  He has a pretty good rep in the business.  Ofcoarse, now I have to do him a favor.  LOL
 
At 180, I would expect the exhaust to be just opening? or open?  Now I have to think about this one. . . . .
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on March 28, 2010, 09:05:53 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
So you say go 4 degrees?  I can do that, but once it's in, I'm committed.  That would have me at 112*  instead of the 110* with the 2* key.  Any more than that and I'm asking for trouble.  To review, the center line on this cam is 111*
 
Hemi John used the Cam Tag to set it up so hopefully it's right.  I have all the rockers loose except for #1.  We set the timing up and it's just sitting there waiting for a keyway.  I am going to leave them loose and turn it over to see if it stalls like it did before.  The intake should start to open immediately at this point.  He builds plenty of higher end stuff than this.  Never heard of any going bad.  He has a pretty good rep in the business.  Ofcoarse, now I have to do him a favor.  LOL
 

Go the other way, centerline of 107 instead of 111. This should shift the other things to the delay, so intake would open at 19degrees before TDC, close at 23degrees after bottom center, exhaust will open 44degrees before bottom center, and close -11degrees after top center. Makes everything open and close four degrees earlier. I just looked at the centerlines of 20 cams from 4 companies, one was 110 degrees and was for all out racing, most everything else is 107-108. If an exhaust valve is bending pushrods, closing 4 degrees earlier should help. Closing 15degrees after TDC is a little bit late, so 11degrees would definitely help. Put the centerline at 107 with a 4degree key, because 2 degrees will still have them bend the pushrods, and what was this "domed piston" thing you were talking about???
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 29, 2010, 06:29:08 AM
You know, they pistons are not the flat ones.  LOL
 
I may as well go with the stock key then.  Ya think?
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 29, 2010, 01:34:21 PM
Would you believe I spent half the day looking for a lousey offset keyway?  Nobody has them for the Magnum engine.  I can get all the LA's I want.
 
So I went this route
 
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/products.php?browse=category&level0=U21hbGwgQmxvY2sgTWFnbnVtICgzLjkvNS4yLzUuOSk=&level1=VGltaW5nIENoYWluICYgQ29tcG9uZW50&partid=23311 (http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/products.php?browse=category&level0=U21hbGwgQmxvY2sgTWFnbnVtICgzLjkvNS4yLzUuOSk=&level1=VGltaW5nIENoYWluICYgQ29tcG9uZW50&partid=23311)
 
Now I can put it dead nuts on.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 29, 2010, 01:55:42 PM
Is all this you're going through now because they *****d up your cam grind????

I am so totally lost on wtf happened here I feel like I'm on another forum...
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on March 29, 2010, 02:00:42 PM
Yeah, that makes sense...keep buying parts from the company that bent eight pushrods for no reason. Hey, did you check out that clearance between the piston and valves ahead of time? You may still be able to do it by rotating the engine with the pushrods in and seeing how much clearance is between the piston and valve through the sparkplug. May not be able to get in there and look, but you should be able to get something in there to make sure there is a gap between the two.  I still say, after looking at it, that closing 15 degrees past top dead center is a little on the late side. Other option is 1.5 rockers, but they are different for the Magnum, so that doesn't help. Problem is that the exhaust valves close so late in the rotation.dana442010-03-29 19:03:49
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 29, 2010, 02:05:16 PM
Quote from: dana44
Yeah, that makes sense...keep buying parts from the company that bent eight pushrods for no reason.
 Finally.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)      Someone who thinks the same way I do around here.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 29, 2010, 02:37:04 PM
According to Hemi John, I was about 90* off on the cam because I didn't follow distructions.  So up until I put that gear and chain in tomorrow, I am going to assume it was MY FAULT!
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 29, 2010, 02:44:40 PM
Quote from: dana44
Yeah, that makes sense...keep buying parts from the company that bent eight pushrods for no reason. Hey, did you check out that clearance between the piston and valves ahead of time? You may still be able to do it by rotating the engine with the pushrods in and seeing how much clearance is between the piston and valve through the sparkplug. May not be able to get in there and look, but you should be able to get something in there to make sure there is a gap between the two.  I still say, after looking at it, that closing 15 degrees past top dead center is a little on the late side. Other option is 1.5 rockers, but they are different for the Magnum, so that doesn't help. Problem is that the exhaust valves close so late in the rotation.


 
Ohhh Stopppp (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)
 
I called all over, for those keys. . .but ended back there.  It's not their fault
 
Here.  This is what I was supposed to do
 
http://www.moparfins.com/d/caminstruct.doc (http://www.moparfins.com/d/caminstruct.doc)
 
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 29, 2010, 04:11:55 PM
Well!
 
In between the rain drops, I went out and poped the distributor cap.  The rotor is around 120 degrees from where it was from #1.
 
My fault.  I screwed up big time.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on March 29, 2010, 05:14:27 PM
Most of the time learning costs a lot more! You will get it running soon!
 
When you do not expect to have to degree your cam this kind of thing can happen. I trusted the cam maker many times with success before I learned how to degree and index a cam. Once I understood what was going on I was able to play around with certain grinds. I was able to advance the cam timing on a couple of my builds to help build bottom end torque.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 29, 2010, 05:25:26 PM
I'll have the timing set tomorrow.  The cam is set and just waiting for me to put back together.  If the rain holds out tomorrow, I'll set the gears, reset the pump gear and distributor and try it again.  I'll need a couple of hours to put it back together right.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on March 29, 2010, 09:03:50 PM
So how did the 90* come in as wrong all the sudden? Did your old gear set have multiple keyways or some thing like that, or did you set up the exhaust valve as the number one start point of measuring and some other junk I can't even think of right now?
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 30, 2010, 05:35:42 AM
I must have used the wrong keyway on the crank pully.  I don't see that well you know. . .

It's cold and windy today, so I doube I'll be getting into it.  Tomorrow it will be in the 70's. . .POLARACO2010-03-30 10:36:43
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Leaburn Patey on March 30, 2010, 01:01:28 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
  Tomorrow it will be in the 70's. . .
Boogie nights and a fender mount turn signal digital wrist watch..
(http://www.berting.nl/seventies/pics/fashion/gpsteel.jpg)
CBarge2010-03-30 18:04:58
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 30, 2010, 01:10:32 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 30, 2010, 01:38:39 PM
I don't get it
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on March 30, 2010, 02:26:40 PM
I do....Saturday night, the 70s......gotta love the matures on here!
 
OK, so let me see if this makes equal sense of what is happening here. There is more than one keyway on the crank itself? OK, I can see that. So, when you dialed in top dead center with the piston at TDC, you didn't verify the TDC actually, just figured the piston was where it was supposed to be when the dots lined up and then checked the cam in relation to what you "thought" was TDC? If there are more than one keyways on the crank, just one of those things I have never seen, so I learned something myself.
 
dana442010-03-30 19:27:41
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 30, 2010, 02:53:59 PM
No if I understand you right. . . .
 
Always work with the engine on TDC.  Crank was right.  But what I did wrong was retard the cam by 3*, which is significant looking at thet gear set I got from Hughes.
 
You need to see this gear set to appreciate the amount of space needed.  I'm  thinking like distributor timing which is a tap per degree.  In this case, 2 sprokets is a degree.  Now I see what I did more clearly and understand how I was so far out.
 
POLARACO2010-03-30 20:14:04
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on March 30, 2010, 03:01:58 PM
That's OK, take your time. Not going anywhere fast.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 30, 2010, 03:22:39 PM
Oh Yeah
 
I amde sure this will never happen again.  Lesson learned
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/Camtimer.jpg)
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on March 30, 2010, 10:03:04 PM
Yeah, I have one in a box in the shed somewhere, out of the package, used once. It is nice to have a cam grinder that can cut a cam and know where the keyway is so it lines up properly in the first place, too.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 31, 2010, 01:28:09 AM
Quote from: dana44
Yeah, I have one in a box in the shed somewhere, out of the package, used once. It is nice to have a cam grinder that can cut a cam and know where the keyway is so it lines up properly in the first place, too.
Now that's funnier right there than Lea's 70's post....
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 31, 2010, 02:56:48 AM
Quote from: dana44
Yeah, I have one in a box in the shed somewhere, out of the package, used once. It is nice to have a cam grinder that can cut a cam and know where the keyway is so it lines up properly in the first place, too.


 
Ahhh   I see your point now.  OK  I got it.  Point taken
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on March 31, 2010, 04:32:40 AM
Today is the day.  It's going to be warm and dry out.  But I have my sister-in-law coming in from Florida.  (Queen Ditz) So this will be cramping my Polaraco time.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 01, 2010, 07:51:27 AM
IT........IS.........ALIIIVVVVVE
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on April 01, 2010, 07:57:23 AM
April Fools!
 
Commando12010-04-01 12:58:09
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 01, 2010, 08:04:25 AM
Later

Battery dead.POLARACO2010-04-01 13:43:56
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on April 01, 2010, 09:03:48 AM
Stalling.....
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 01, 2010, 11:15:54 AM
No. . . I have a nasty oil leak because I tried to shortcut.  I was trying to save the gaskets but it didn't work.  So you'll have to wait
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on April 01, 2010, 11:57:26 AM
Timing chain cover leaking? Dang! I have had similar things go wrong...just takes more time. For some reason any work I did on other people's engine I never had oil leaks but mine seemed to always develope a small leak or two...it must be Murphys oil leak law!
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 01, 2010, 02:12:51 PM
That's why I called this engine Murphy.
 
It's even worse now.  The crank bolt is stripped
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on April 01, 2010, 03:53:09 PM
I never kick a man when he's down...
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 01, 2010, 04:35:38 PM
I rebound quick
 
Crank is salvageable and ready for the damper.  I guess I should elaborate. . .
 
The main crank bolt got stuck in the cranh.  There is a gouge in the bolt about 3 threads wide.  I don't know why it did that, but I chased the threads with another bolt, by hand, until it bottomed.  If felt a bit rough, but didn't feel any snagging as I turned it in.  I'll clean it out again and lube the replacement crank bolt before I put the damper on.  This time I'll deive the damper in with a block of wood and a hammer as far as I can. 
 
POLARACO2010-04-01 21:44:03
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on April 01, 2010, 04:45:27 PM
Standing by patiently, not going anywhere. Went to the building department to check on the garage plans, Fire Marshall saw me, thought for sure I would have been done, so I had to set him straight with the runaround (along with many expetives and descriptive pictures he will remember...guess it's the Sailor in me that is upset). Anyway, waiting for your results. I guess I can live through your adventures, nothing else I can do.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 01, 2010, 04:53:26 PM
I runs Ed!  I am finally past that part.  Other than to move it a few feet, I haven't driven it because of the oil leak.  But that seems to be behind me now.  Well I hope it is.  Read back.
 
I gotta tell ya, this engine has fought me every inch of the way.
 
I must have used the wrong mark on the bottom gear or something.  That's the opnly thing I can come up with.  Couple of years ago, My right eye became useless.  That doesn't help.  You wouldn't know to look at me, but my left eye is working it's ass off.  Between that and fatigue, I am really screwing this one up.
 
Those who know me can tell you this isn't me.  At least I KNOW the bottom is right and the cam is right now.  Heads all checked out.  Compression on 3 strokes hits 130, and that was before it was run.  The rings need some time to break in.  It should come up.  But all that is a good sign.  Motor ran a bit rough for the first 5 minutes after I put water in it, then started to smooth out.  I have yet to put the new injectors in it.  That's next.  But I want to drive it first.  I still have some more neatening to do.  The fire wall will get worked on when I remove the fiberglas heater box.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on April 01, 2010, 05:01:49 PM
That sounds great!
 
Roughness can be simple grease and gunk getting burned off, sensors setting themselves up, rings seating, things like that. Guess I will wait for more info tomorrow.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on April 01, 2010, 05:14:47 PM
Good to hear you got her sealed up and are ready to roll again! Now you need to get out and seat those rings while the cylinders are relatively rough. When you get a chance are you going to take some videos of your new toy? I am interested in hearing how your cam choice runs.
Good luck Steve!
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 01, 2010, 05:54:52 PM
Gonna try to have it back on the road full time by Saturday.  I have a bit of wire repair to do, but it can wait.  First thing is to get it all back together and shaken out.
 
Things still on the list
Change the kickdown cable.  1 Hour
Ding the right exhaust pipe around the T Bar 20 minutes
Solder up several connections on the factory engine harness. 1 hour
Change injectors.  1 Hour
 
But I imagine I'll have it up and running tomorrow afternoon.  I just have to put the damper back on and touch up the paining, then remount all the accessories, which are easy.  Put the rad back in. . .  That sort of thing.
 
On top of all this, my air ratched crapped out.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif) 
 
Kind of an odd place.  My read is the threads on the bolt broke and jammed the bult.  It looks like the impact gun pulverized the bad pieces of thread with minimal damage
 
POLARACO2010-04-02 00:28:55
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 01, 2010, 07:32:29 PM
Update
 
The Damper went in nicely and the bolt didn't skip.  I guess the old bolt couldn't handle coming out 7 times. . . .  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)
 
I was bored tonight and the weather is good, so I finished the front of the motor.  All that's left in the front is the rad. For now.
 
So tomorrow, I'll drop in the rad and get the cable and exhaust fixed up and closed up.  I can tackle the injectors and wiring after I drive it around a bit.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Ken on April 01, 2010, 07:38:52 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)


Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 02, 2010, 04:46:22 PM
70 mikes later. . .
 
I can't say I am totally happy with the way it runs. . .  I have a misfire that comes and goes.  There is no associated noises I can hear with the miss, so I'll have to do some investigating.  I did the injectors already and put the 5.9 HP computer in it.  It is running a tad leaner than the old motor.
 
Seem to have all the leaks stopped. . . .  I had a nast oil leak tyesterday.  What a pain in the ass that was. . .  The timing cover kept pushing the rubber oil pan seal in.  I needed a third hand to make sure it stayed in place.
 
I expected ot to run a bit hot. . . It's running about 10 degrees hotter than the old motor did.  Bit it's holding up so far.
 
Of all the times for the electirc fan controller to take a crap.  I have the fans running on a relay right now.  So they are running at full speed.  Even at that, running at 2000 RPM, doing 70, it's still running at 198*.  But it has come down a tad. 
 
That motor is TIGHT!  Man!  Initially, when I drove it up the hill near my house, I asked myself if the $2800 was worth it.  But after a few more miles it started to respond better.  At about 60 Miles, I got on it a bit, pushing the revs up to 3200, and it definitely has some pull.  But the torque doesn't seem to be where I thought it was going to be.  Maybe it's too early to tell.
 
Tomorrow, I am going to dump this oil and put fresh oil and filter in it.  I still have the wiring corrections I need to make and some house keeping items left.
 
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go find a new fan controller (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)
 
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on April 02, 2010, 05:08:32 PM
I don't know about that running a tad leaner on a fresh motor is a good thing. Are you sure about the injectors and all, along with the settings of the computer being lean? Hate it when things go bad, being the fan sensor, in a rebuild, but check the timing itself, even though it is said timing and the computer is all automatic, don't believe it, so bump it up 2degrees and allow it to break in a bit.

You said the torque wasn't quite where you thought it would be......'splain yourself a bit.dana442010-04-02 22:22:27
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stitcherbob on April 02, 2010, 06:22:17 PM
it's a tight new motor.....give it 500 miles or so

Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 02, 2010, 06:57:31 PM
Yeah Bob. . .That's the plan

Ed,

It seems to have more pull at 3000 than at 2000.  Traffic on the Hochimin (SP) Trail (I80) was pretty heavy tonight, so i couldn't give it's paces.  I also didn't want to push it too hard until I had a few mile on it.  Breaking it in like we did in the 70's. 
 
Although it's hard to read the tach, because someone changed the tach direction on me so I can't just glance at it.  Long story, but he knows who he is.  Say OOPS! now.

 
I have to give it a bit more time. 
 
One thing I have to do is add a throttle spring to the existing one.  I have a tendancy to lurching and over compensating when you don't have the room to just go.  Hard to explain.  But it's really sensitive from a start now.
 
Except for an exhaust leak at one flange, the motor is quiet with a slight valve train tapping from all 16  ounds like a really quiet sewing machine.  I have to assume it's the valve springs slamming the valves shut.
 
POLARACO2010-04-02 23:58:48
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on April 02, 2010, 08:17:40 PM
Very possible, but it changes the injector point, might help a tiny bit. Let her break in a bit, don't think there is too much more than this duration that could be accomplished to get more bottom end safely, let her settle in a little more. Remember, ported heads can run a tad lean, not dangerous lean, but keep in mind also the "learing" ability of the newer computers (starting 2002), where driving habits are learned from the driver's habits, so push it hard and she will scream, treat her gently and she will run gently for you. Not sure which computer you have right now, so it may or may not apply.
 
How is the throttle response other than the throttle spring being a little soft? You said it was lurching because it was responding faster than the traffic was allowing, which may be an indicator that you need a longer swing on the throttle body itself, change its pivot point so the throttle takes farther to travel for more precise response, it may be too short a fulcrum and move too fast (to which this engine design is a quick response setup, as I understand the lurching described, butterflies open too quickly for your personal feel, yes?)It was noted 500miles for the tight motors to break in, the hardened cylinders can go up to 1500miles before break-in consistency and when the mileage will settle in closer to what it will finally be (many of us experienced mediocre mileage until the 1500miles came in, then a noticeable difference in fill-ups occuring), which you should already remember from other Magnums built, so hang in there, and figure that at about 200miles, drive her hard and put her away wet a few times and get those rings seated more.
 
dana442010-04-03 01:20:25
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stitcherbob on April 03, 2010, 06:19:55 AM

Yeah Bob. . .That's the plan

Ed,

[/QUOTE]

Remember....it's Easter weekend......if ya blow it up it ain't gonna resurrect itself!(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif)

Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 03, 2010, 06:30:33 AM
Damn. . . I was so tired last night.  I couldn't spell Ho-Chi-Min to save my life.  Thanks Bob. 
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 03, 2010, 06:37:19 AM
I wiah I could drive it hard.  There isn't too many places around here you can get on it without some open mouth white knuckler getting in the way.  Frustrating.

This is ODP1.  There is limited learning.  The only learning it does is to match up to the sensors
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on April 03, 2010, 07:08:10 AM
OK, just checking. Fueel tables are probably a little off, but not by much. Give it a little time.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 03, 2010, 03:58:55 PM
It seems to be a bit more responsive today.  The miss is gone. . .  I drove it up to the Chatterbox Cruise-in tonight, about 35 miles.  Was able to WOT it a few times, but the trans is shifting into higher gears too soon so it can't rev over 3500.  Haven't tried to spin them yet. . .
 
I need to do a shift kit on this anyway.  I had this problem with the other motor too.  I know where the problem is. . . Need to get it on a lift.
 
Did the oil change today.  I have to cut open the filter yet.  There was some very fine steel attached to the drain plug magnet.  I expected that.  I also had a secondary maginet next to to the plug on the oil pan.  OIl looked fine
 
POLARACO2010-04-03 21:03:19
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on April 03, 2010, 06:31:39 PM
That's why the shift selector is there, so you can hold it in a gear longer!
 
Next question is, even though she is shifting at 3500, is she still pulling more, or flattening out? I suspect she is still pulling, even with the short duration, just want to hear your opinion on that.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 03, 2010, 07:47:21 PM
Yeah it's still pulling, but it's not like a diesel. . .  Higher gears are the power gears. . . . It seems to loose it's omph.  But it's only at 100 miles now.  Trying to drive this thing from a standing start is a new experience though. . .
 
I know the shifter is there. . .  But the traffic requires allot of attention.  That's the last thing I want to be dealing with.
 
I have a vibration.  Pretty bad too.  You can't feel in if you put your hand on the fender and rev the engine, but it is sure pronounced when sitting in the car. . .  You don't feel it when touching the engine.  So I'm getting some harmonics somewhere.  It vibrates sitting still and driving.  But this car was never that smooth to start with for some reason
 
I'm waiting for my buddy to get his lift free so we can check the alignment of the trans, and all that.  It could be, the trans is touching the floor somewhere.  This motor moved a bit as I used the 360 mounts on the 318.  Now it's the way it's supposed to be.  Since the 518 is larger than a 727, there are considerations we need to make on the floor.  As it was, I had to dent the floor on the drivers side.  But I won't know until I get it up where I can look at it.  My rubber body is not so rubbery these days.  It's probably touching the floor somewhere.  I Hope. . .  I doubt it's the weights.  We putzed with the position for an hour.  I had someone with 2 working eyes work with me and we got them within .001.  I bet.  I hope the puddling he did wasn't too much.  Taking that inspection plate off is a joy. . .
 
POLARACO2010-04-04 00:48:48
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on April 03, 2010, 08:28:30 PM
Good to hear that you are on the road and testing her out. Depending on what clearances you used for building your engine it could be a bit on the tight side. A long as you do not over heat an engine that is built very tight you should be alright.
 
When I was building my third small block I set it up to almost the tightest specs that the factory would send out. I will not do that again as it took a few months before that engine would spin up in rpm properly. It never burned a drop of oil and still runs very strong after 18 years of use and some abuse but I would bet that if I tore it down I would find some evidence of too tight a ring gap...either some cylinder wall damage and/or broken compression rings. I put a high output oil pump on that engine (she made 120+psi on startup) and it blew up the oil filter on startup. That was the last time I used assembly lube...only fresh clean motor oil after that.
 
I pulled apart a 273 that had forged TRWs installed but they ran to small an end gap on the rings...all of them were broken but the engine did not burn oil even at around 80,000 miles on it.
 
Anyway, my point is that if you believe it is tight then take some more time before you expect it to wind up quick. It could of course be many other things...just giving you things to think about.
Good luck with your new toy Steve!
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 04, 2010, 07:38:41 AM
We didn't underspec anything.  The rings were fitted with .003 clearence.  Rods plasti gauged at .004.  Crank turned out to be .003.  So nothing is exceptionally tight.  However  I am concerned because it was running a bit hotter.  But last night, after the oil change, it ran cooler.  I'm on 10/W30 at the moment and will stay there for the next 500 miles before I dump it again. 
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 04, 2010, 07:41:05 AM
Quote
Impact wrenches are great for taking things apart, not so great for assembling things, unless it is one of the small ratchet type air wrenches, lug nuts the only exception as far as I am concerned.
 
I use the impact guy to take them out, not put them in. . . .  In this case I was really concerned because I couldn't turn it by hand at all.  So we ak ak it out.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: steve sclafani on April 04, 2010, 09:44:24 AM
Saw Polaraco last night at an informal cruise night. What a superb job Steve did on the latest Jorsey Caper.

Very nice! Brute Horsepower  And good mileage too!
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 04, 2010, 02:34:34 PM
Took a bit, but I finally started to gain on the your Desoto. . . .  And you had the drop on me.  Too bad that guy was in front of me with that Escalade and you had Angelo in front of you

Thanks Steve! (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)POLARACO2010-04-04 19:35:01
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 05, 2010, 11:45:19 AM
What a PIG!
 
10 MPG so far.  200 miles.  As I recall, the 5.2 was 50% better from the start with the same work on the bottom.  Just didn't have the cam and porting.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on April 05, 2010, 11:53:56 AM
I need to find that post Polaraco made about this engine being built  to be all about gas economy....(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stitcherbob on April 05, 2010, 04:15:39 PM
Whatterya feedin it? I find that if I feed my 4.9 Cadd-y regular (it wants premium) the computer cuts the spark advance and it registers about 14 mpg, but on mid-grade fuel it runs better and gets 15.5-17 mpg. I have to put the good stuff in it and see what happens (plus cap & rotor need changin)

Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 05, 2010, 05:11:14 PM
93 Octane, the last 2 tanks full.
 
The timing was retarded slightly so I bumped it.  Runs better and seems to be doing a bit better.  270 miles now.  Been to Blarestown twice today and a stop off at Petes because I goofed up on the timing.  Wrong glasses.  Or I bumped the distributor with the wrench when I was tightening it.  Ran like crap.  But she haulin butt now.
 
I still need to give it an advance slightly.  That's where the 5.2 ran and best eco spot was.  About 2 degrees advanced.
 
Now I have to fill it again.  This time I am going to go back to 89 and see what happens.  This higrade stuff is too expensive at this rate.
 
I gotta tell you, setting the timing in the car is a real PITA.  There is not enough room to get my head down in there to get a straight on look at the timing point.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on April 05, 2010, 06:22:50 PM
Only use higher octane fuels if your engine is a high compression engine and you are having preignition problems. The higher octane fuels burn slower to prevent detonation. So if you run high octane fuel in a low compression engine you can get worse fuel economy than running the correct fuel for your particular build. Your engine may need high test depending on how you setup it up. Some of my combinations changed when I ran a shorter duration cam with high top pistons...cylinder pressures went up so I had to run better fuel to make it work properly. Sounds like it still needs some miles put on it and some more tuning.
 
Good to hear that you are having some fun with it now!
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 05, 2010, 07:36:16 PM
Yeah Stu. . .   I was following the new ECM instructions for now. . .   It says to use only high octane.  So to be safe for now, I am doing that.  But you are right.  The 5.2 had a High Perf ECM and I ran regular all the time.  But Ed made sure I took all the possible detination points out of the cylinders too.  I frankly can't tell just yet if all that was benificial, but I believe him.  I think it will work out just fine.  Hell it only has 280 miles on it. . . . 
 
They had it figured ona 9:1 Ratio.  I'm about 9.5:1  Maybe a tad more.
 
I do know if they timing is retarded, it will be a pig.  Run weak. . .  I finally got it up to the correct static timing, I can't see well in that tight spot.  So tomorrow, I am going to try to advance it a tad.  1 or 2*.  With it retarded it leans out too much and runs like crap.  I mean really bad.  The 5.2 computer runs way too rich, so I'm stuck with the 5.9.  I should look around for a rebuilt stock computer.
 
It's still running a bit fat.  I have a A to F gauge in the dash.  The other motor ran the same.  I need to move the O2 sensor for that so I can get a more accurate reading.  It's way back in the X on the pipes. (X Pipe Exhaust)  But you can smell it running a bit fat.  Must be a limitation of the system and there isn't a damn thing I can do for it.  It needs to lean out about 10% more, but it's still new too.
 
It gets stronger every day though.  That's a good thing.
 
Shame on me.  I haven't taken a picture of it finished. 
 
 
 
 
 


POLARACO2010-04-06 00:39:05
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stitcherbob on April 05, 2010, 07:48:16 PM

Give 'er some Ethyl!

(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/10/gas5.jpg)


Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on April 05, 2010, 07:59:49 PM
And you take such great pictures, too!
 
Doesn't this computer take a handheld Hypertech controller that can be used to adjust a few things? Every truck article with this gadget onboard did some real miracle changes to its capability, from mileage, performance, hp/tq output on a dyno, timing changes, fuel/air ratios, you name it, it does it all.
 
You can go with the cheap gas, that's what this design is all about, when the time comes. I was literally running 87 octane in 13:1 on the street with ported heads as Steve did his, and if you can do that, you can do anything. One period of about a week I had pinging, in Mexico, Tijuana to Cabo San Lucas, 75 octane, but the 79 octane didn't ping. From CSL we drove up to Guadalajara (after taking the ferry across the Sea of Cortez(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley12.gif)), altitude 7500ft, two lane (ummmm, that's one each way) up a winding mountain and no pinging, so it can be done, slow advance is the key, after the sharp edges are removed.
 
I have not one single time had mileage go down after building an engine with ported heads and the short duration cam, but not making excuses, so consider two things: EFI itself, and location of the O2 sensor. A couple extra degrees in timing may be part of the answer also, running a little fat isn't helping, and not knowing what fuel tables are being used probably isn't helping either (remember also, ported heads run cleaner than stock, so you can be running 11:1 air/fuel ratio and it would still run clean without knowing it, or the throttle position sensor may be out of sync, too). I am hoping that after the few more miles are added that you did the OBD I and it has the Hypertech controller capability to do the fine tuning (timing, fuel tables, etc.).
 
dana442010-04-06 01:04:34
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 06, 2010, 06:49:34 AM
It comes out of closed loop at 160 degrees.  But the open loop is powerful enough to keep if going smoothly and leans it out quite a bit.
 
There is no adjustment capability on this system.  What ever is going on, I will have to fool the tables.  Timing was one thing.  I was amazed how poorly it ran with just a couple of degrees retarded.  It leaned it out so badly the car bucked severely.  All was fine after getting my fat head under there and able to see it.
 
Let's see how it runs with a couple of degrees added today.  At the moment it's right on static timing.
 
The system O2 sensor is right below the exhaust manifold.   the A to F sensor is further back.  I have plans to move it close to the engine.  It will ne more accurate then.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on April 06, 2010, 07:07:22 AM
'puters..... don't belong on engines!
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 06, 2010, 07:28:06 AM
Not so Stan. . .I get more, smoother, trouble free mileage from that than some carb. . .   Lower maintainance too.
 
POLARACO2010-04-06 12:38:11
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on April 06, 2010, 11:40:45 AM
10 or so years ago my buddy helped me retune an OBD I GM fuel injection system. I downloaded the software off the net and he helped me change the fuel curves and ignition curves using an old laptop with a serial port and a custom DIY cable. We were able to make about 75 more hp over stock (a few other mods helped contribute to this number) after playing around with the setup. I am not sure if there is software or a hand held programmer for your setup or not. Maybe you will be lucky and figure out how to change some parameters to help fine tune your combination.
 
It must be running better now that you have put a few miles on it. Good luck Steve!
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 06, 2010, 12:37:55 PM
There is nothing available for the Mopar ODP1 setup.  I can pay 500 to have the chip removed and retuned, but the chip has to be soldered back in.  I've spent 3 years looking for something.  All I found was a couple of gimmicks.  It's an E Prom, not an EEProm.  Which means the EProm has to go into a writer to be programmed.  If it was an EE, then things might be different.  Someone was thinking ahead.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on April 06, 2010, 01:13:12 PM
Pssssttt. Carburetor...
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Leaburn Patey on April 06, 2010, 04:36:10 PM
Quote from: Commando1
Pssssttt. Carburetor...
Save it for another build where MPG is not a concern.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stitcherbob on April 06, 2010, 04:53:27 PM


Old Polaraco had a car...

Quote from: POLARACO
It's an E Prom, not an EEProm.  Which means the EProm has to go into a writer to be programmed.  If it was an EE, then things might be different. 

E I, E I, O
stitcherbob2010-04-06 21:54:12
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 06, 2010, 05:38:31 PM
**  Put a ding in the exhaust pipe near the T Bar on the right side  10 minutes
DONE
**  Remove the bolts from the fiberglass heater cover on the bottom.  I don't need it so out it goes.  5 minutes
DONE
**  Weld the balance weights on to the converter 30 minutes
DONE
**  Clean up a few minor wiring issues on the engine harness (Tach feed) 10 minutes
DONE
 
I even wrapped the ignition wires with that split wrap because they are touching each other.
 
I do have an exhaust leak I will tend to tomorrow.  The pipes are not perfect so I need to take some off the top of the flange so I can pull it tighter.  But before that, I will need to heat the pipe and take some of the stress off of it.  If I do it right, I may not have to grind it at all.
 
I'll post pictures of it done tomorrow.
 
I advanced the timing amybe 2 degrees tonight, as I said I would.  It's running slightly leaner at idle now.  I didn't go out anywhere today so I don't know any more.  Fires right off.
 
My new fan controller will be here tomorrow, so I can install that too.  Once those two items are done, I am pretty much done with the whole swap.  It will be 98%.
 
Had to mess with the air cleaner a bit.  For some reason it didn't sit flat like it did on the 5.2.  I need to get a new piece of stove pipe to make it better and get rid of the pieces.  If I could fins a small quantity of 4" fles, I would use that.  The problem with that stuff is it bends too easily.  Look like crap in a month. 
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on April 06, 2010, 09:00:45 PM
If it is the tranny you are worried about and from there not having the ability to tune with a controller, heck, get ahold of one of the tranny companies and get the needed switches to make the tranny work. I don't know of too many guys with Hemis and other B/RB engines with the four speed autos needing the EFI, and from there get a manual tranny pooter and get some tuning capability.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 07, 2010, 06:04:26 AM
I know about those kits.  I didn't care for them.  This one is shifting too soon, so we have a valve body issue anyway.  The cable is fully extended. . . I have a plan.
 
I wasn't complaining Ed. . .   It's been an issue with this trans since I built it.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on April 07, 2010, 06:42:23 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
I know about those kits.  I didn't care for them.  This one is shifting too soon, so we have a valve body issue anyway.  The cable is fully extended. . . I have a plan.
 

Just thinking of ways to make things better, that's all.
 
If it is still shifting too soon, your pivot point needs to be made longer so it stretches the shift cable farther, that's all. You know how to fix that.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 07, 2010, 08:02:54 AM
The throttle pressure cable is maxed out now.  And I put in a new one thinking the other was stretched.  That's not it. . .May be out of whack inside.  There's an adjustment at the valve body for the lever.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 07, 2010, 08:06:51 AM
That reminds me Ed
 
I do have a vibration between 1300 and 1500.   It seems to me I had a similar vibration in the last engine too.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 07, 2010, 11:30:50 AM
I took these before I wrapped the wires and the fans were fixed.   The distributor cap was off the disty too.
 
Worked on that exhaust leak. . . It's better, but I guess I have to take the manifold off and grind the top of the flang down so I can pull it tight.
 
I think the Blue was a good choice.
 
Running pretty good now
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/59done1.jpg)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/59done2.jpg)
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on April 07, 2010, 12:11:33 PM
Love the intake setup.
Home Depot or Lowes?......
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 07, 2010, 12:38:46 PM
You talking about the intake bonnet?
 
I'm not sucking hot air into my engine
 
 
 
 
POLARACO2010-04-07 21:55:36
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on April 07, 2010, 08:20:58 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
That reminds me Ed
 

While driving or at idle, or both? Sounds a little shy of the torque converter lockup point if driving. Possible accessory related if it is the same as the last engine, and the same parts bolted on. Is there a vacuum advance on the distributor? Trying to remember when they were removed, and whether it is centrifugal weight bounce. I know it's electronic controlled, that's why I'm asking.
 
dana442010-04-08 01:26:29
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 08, 2010, 07:16:23 AM
I think it's trans related
 
Seems to me it was there all the time now that I think about it.    I feel it more throught he floor pan than I do the front.
 
The distrbutor is nothing more than a breaker plate with a rotor and cap.
 
I've had this shifting issues all along.  I have a shift kit for it, eventually I'll do that.  I also need to up the line pressure
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 08, 2010, 12:33:22 PM
*%&^*&^%&^T$R#^%$%&^(*UY%&^%#^%$&^%*&^(^%*&$&^#&%$#&^%^*&
 
This flippin exhaust leak is driving me nuts!  I've had this thing apart 4 times and each time it get's better, but it still insists on being a PITA.
 
I ordered 2 sets of flange donuts to double them up.  The ones I have on there are pretty bent up now.  I can't get enough torque on them to pull the flamges tighter because I can't work on my back and do this.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on April 08, 2010, 01:01:10 PM
Maybe you will have to reinstall your old headers to fix this problem.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 08, 2010, 02:06:33 PM
Quote from: Rockwerx
Maybe you will have to reinstall your old headers to fix this problem.

Bit your tounge
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on April 08, 2010, 08:39:57 PM
Heating the pipe in the wrong location.
 
If I recall, you have an H or X pipe back there, so heat the opposite side and bottom of the pipe opposite the bend direction (at the manifold, if the flange needs to tip up on the left side, heat it up on the right side and bottom of the pipe where there is a bend to begin with) so you are moving three feet of exhaust pipe instead of a few inches. You will be amazed how much easier it is to bend less than half an inch when spread over a three foot area vice six inch area.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 09, 2010, 06:34:48 AM
I actually heated both sides for slight adjustments.
 
It's still kicking my ass. . .   (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley16.gif)
 
I bought some new reducers so we'll see what happens now.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 09, 2010, 05:14:41 PM
Ed
Rick Eherenberg and I have been going back and forth about the car and I brought up the injectors I bought.




 
He said with this computer system, 
Quote
The computer has very little adaptive capability at closed loop, and none at WOT.   Al little fat! Probably a lot. Kiss the rings goodbye, soon.







 
[color=#ffffff size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]I have to believe that because even thought the A/F is showing it running in the normal area, it smells fat in the exhaust.  I am thinking the sensor is coated with soot and not reading correctly.[/color]
 
Yesterday I dropped the right exhaust pipe, after a highway stint, and the pipe was coated with puffy soot.  Not good.  That's what made me investigate this further.
 
So I spent two hours flushing the original injectors with 2 + 2 and 30 PSI of compressed air.  My injector cleaner is out on loan.  The two injectors in question I spotted when I removed them, infact had a strange spray pattern  A few flushes and they are spraying much better now.
 
Shadapp Stan. . . Lets see a carb last 175,000 miles.  And I don't have to crank the crap out of my car to start it when it's hot. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on April 09, 2010, 06:44:17 PM
I thought we had this conversation and the injectors were the same for both engines, although, if the injectors are more associated with the OBD I system, they may actually be different size. Don't worry about the rings just yet, if you were getting five miles to the gallon I would be worried, but I would get it corrected.
 
What is the difference in the two injector sizes? Something like 32 and 37, something like that? Retarded timing can also carbon up like this, and if you had a stupid OBD II you could adjust it a bit more, but that's just me. Have you tried upping the timing another couple degrees on top of this? I know it adjusts the injection timing also, but a couple degrees wouldn't hurt anything in that realm.
 
Oh, and my original 68 Charger 318 had 265,000miles on it with nothing ever done to the engine or tranny, but many tires and oil changes, not even an alternator or water pump problem, carb was never changed/rebuilt, so this one's for Stan, some old things are just as good as electronics, carbs can last just as long without problem.
 
dana442010-04-10 00:08:59
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 09, 2010, 07:56:08 PM
Ed, before I read your write up, I discovered this information.
 
It confirms the injectors I have in the car are too big
 
'98 #53030778 23.2lb/hr @ 49psi
 
Bottom line is, the stock injectors are almost 1/2 as big as the new ones I bought.  I had a choice of the 24 pound ones too, but even they may be too big.  If I could figure out a way to get my rail pressure up, that might help performance.

Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 09, 2010, 08:10:43 PM
OK
 
Looks like I addressed your last paragraph on the different injectors.
 
Rick and I talked and I decided to put the old injectors back in.  So I went through the tedious process of flushing each injector and back flushing them too.  The 2 that had an odd spray are now spraying much better.  The pattern looks like the rest at 35 PSI.  Straight and fine.
 
I cleaned out the 5.9 injectors and got them all working well too.  However, they appear to be too big as well.  If you look at the chart, the ones I got with the 5.9 are 23#  They operate at higher rail pressure.
 
You can bet your butt I am going to have those 18 pounders back in there tomorrow.  I told Rick I have about 250 miles on the engine with those rings so he was relieved.  I busted his chops for not returning my call a couple of weeks ago.  It was about the injectors and the Direct Connection (damn it) Mopar Performance HP 5.9 ECM.  I wanted to know if I was OK with the stock injectors or upgrade.  Since I felt I should put new injectors in, I bought what I could find at a reasonable price.  They are good injectors, but just way too big.  That ECM was a fresh run too.  Made in 11/09.  I'm good for 20 years now.  LOL
 
BTW
Rick and I are going to the track Sunday.  I may run this, but a bit Leary with it being so new.  I'm holding 70 PSI Oil pressure and it's starting to run at normal temps.
 
I switched over to regular 87 on this tank full. . .   Now that I am leaning it out, I am hoping it's not going to ping.  But I did everything you said in the combustion chamber, I expect it to be OK.  It will probably be stronger now.
 
It will be a cold day in hell I change that trans over to the ODPII electronic Governor. . .   As I said in my PM, I'd have to go aftermarket and it's too expensive.  I got the 5.2, trans, all the bits and pieces and the harness for nothing by the time I sold off the parts on the truck.  They went fast because it was rust free.  So it was a hello a deal.  And it cut the costs on the project 3 years ago by 3 grand.
 
POLARACO2010-04-10 01:23:21
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: glen cyr on April 09, 2010, 08:31:00 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/26/im_with_stupid_tshirt-p235004690483805978trlf_400.jpg)The imaginary little red guy  sitting on my left shoulder with the funny horns on his head made me post that picture!(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)

Glen
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on April 09, 2010, 08:46:38 PM
Glad to be here, glad you were able to find the real answer after I pointed out the possiblity, and glad you actually have a set of the smaller injectors. Not to keep harping on the OPD2 more, but I thought there was one or two years in the beginning that weren't electronic tranny, but that's OK, I will leave that dead horse alone, we both learned something important, like matching electonics with injectors or suffer the consequence.


I also don't mean to say I told you so, but, I did say that in all the engines I have done this head porting and edging to, not once have I had mileage go down like this, not once, not even close.
 
Let's see what happens now, should be quite a shock coming your way. Set timing back to the 2degrees advance for starters, go from there. Kind of surprised this level of soot didn't show up through the back window....hmmmmmm.
 
OOOOO OOOOO OOOO(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif)
 
Disconnect the battery while changing things out, minimum 20minutes, want to reset the computer to default settings to recalibrate instead of going overboard from the last old readings.
 
dana442010-04-10 01:49:05
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 10, 2010, 06:24:26 AM
Thanks allot Glen  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)  Hello a guy
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 10, 2010, 06:57:07 AM
Ed. . .
 
The trans was changed to the electronic governor in 95 along with the ODP2 system.  Like I said, I'll go aftermarket first.  It's hard enough getting the body tied into it and it does function well, if you don't screw around like I did.  Good thing I have a good gut feel for this stuff
 
Yes it does matter matching the injectors with the ECM.  I had no information on the injectors until I did a 45 minute search and came up with the above info.  I always knew there were different rail pressures. . . That made a difference in the injector tip.  Allegedly
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on April 10, 2010, 07:18:31 AM
I'm not saying a word.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 10, 2010, 02:46:58 PM
You again??? (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)   When I am done Stan, and I think I am now, I'll be getting more power from a smaller engine.  With little information, it's hard to put all this together so it is just right.   You'll have to keep the tub you drive out of my way. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)   Read on.


 
Ok here's the latest saga.  And I mean Saga!
 
I mentioned I flushed the injectors yesterday.  I thought I screwed them up.  I installed them, while doing so, I turned off the pooter so it would clear it's learned data.  Took about an hour to replace the injectors, I've got it down to a science now.  Book calls for 2 hours.  Hooked the 5.9 pooter back up and it ran like crap.  Way too lean and it just would not learn anything.  The A/F gauge was at zero.  That's how lean it was.  No power, popping, really bad.  So I retarded the timing a tad.  NADA.  Started to check each injector one by one.  Not here either.  MMMMMM
 
So I put the 5.2 HP pooter back on.  Fixed everything.  Talking about matching. . . .  It was a luck guess
 
My guess is two fold, I spiked the pooter when I connected it a scrambled it.  Or it could not feed enough fuel from these injectors.  Either way, the 5.2 has this thing screaming now.  And I mean it's better than it ever has been.
 
I am able to return the new injectors I bought.  So they are boxed already.  I have to call Summit on the 5.9 pooter.  Mybe I can get bailed out on 500 bucks.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on April 10, 2010, 06:28:38 PM
Now we're talking. I personally think there is more problems getting the electronics/fuel injectors corrected to each other, because from the little testing I have done and discovered, going smaller cams is OK, larger cams have a limit, but it isn't a flow of air volume, it is the overlap bleedover of the intake to the exhaust that is the only problem with stock computer systems. So the improved flow wasn't the problem, the hard internal parts aren't the problem, it is the computer reading what those parts do and being able to calibrate very little.
 
I do have to say, I think we all learned a lot more about parts swapping components electronically on this build than anything else.
 
As far as the barrel intake goes, my 95 Dak 3.9 still runs the throttle body intake vice barrel intake, think there was one more year before it went barrel intake. I prefer this style because there is more hood clearance if nothing else.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 10, 2010, 07:07:22 PM
If I put a 4 throat TB on there, I'd have tons of hood clearence.  It's that adaptor to the dual 60 MM TB.
 
I delibrately let this go, inspite of the critisim from the southern peanut gallery.  It can be just as tricky picking and jetting the right carb too.
 
OK, I bumped the distributor up about 2 degrees and it runs like a raped ape.  But it fattened it up a bit.  I am thinking it's either the bleed over or it's the timing is increasing the injection pulse width.  Tomorrow morning, before I run up to the track, I am going to bump it back 1* and see what happens. 
 
I noticed the A/F meter is allot more responsive with up and down throttles now.  Long decels, it goes down to 0 or almost 0 when coasting down a big hill or exiting the highway.
 
I took it on a easy highway crusie, 65/70 MPH.  Maintaining 1900 RPM at 70, which is good.  MPG is coming up considerably.  Now I wait for the breakin.
 
I know Eherenberg is going to want me to run this down the track.  It's only got 325 miles on it.  I dunno yet, but it feels good over all now.  I doubt I'll run it this soon.  I haven't even tried to burn the rear tires yet.
 
Had to change the gasket on the oil plug today.  It was new and leaking.  So I pulled the filter too.  Cut it open and just found flecs of paint in it, not metal.  Probably overspray washing off.  As expected, found more real fine filings on the drain plug.  Not allot, so I am confident I have a solid motor.  I'm just glad I got those injectors out of there.  That oil only had about 200 miles on it.
 
POLARACO2010-04-11 00:08:08
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on April 10, 2010, 09:11:25 PM
What about strip home window/door sealer? It is in different widths, curves pretty easy, sticky on one side, can wear pretty well actually.
 
I think you could run her down the track, which is a nice thing about roller cams and hardened cylinders. In the old days, the reason for the slow and timed 500 miles was more to heat treat everything to seat, but these days, moly rings seat within 50 miles (about an hour), and the cam requires no break-in period at all, turn the key and start her and the cam is ready to run (being billet steel or powdered metal material and case pin rollers).
 
dana442010-04-11 02:13:55
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 11, 2010, 04:56:49 AM
We'll see. . .  I have to get back and I'm taking the boy with me.  Momma wants me back and an I have a pile of neglected chores to do.
 
Maybe the next round.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Guests on April 11, 2010, 05:48:48 PM
Well, of all the things, but I digress, not going to come all the way across the country coast to coast to make you do it, now am I?
 
 
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 11, 2010, 05:56:34 PM
I'll leave a light on for ya.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
I didn't have the time to spend today.  As it was I could only stay until 12:30 and Eherenberg was late.  I only got to see one heat.
 
I never have time to do what I want to off my property (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 12, 2010, 08:25:05 AM
Boy I'm stepping in it. . . .
 
Summit let me return the 5.9 ECM.  I don't need ti as the 5.2 is working great.  I think the hardware is fooling it to thinking it's a smaller engine.
 
And I am getting credit for the injectors.  Seems there was a 30 day return policy no questions asked.
 
It pays to be a good customer in certain reputable places like Summit and Amazon.  Of all places, I found those injectors on Amazon.
 
I'm getting $480.00 back on this project! (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stitcherbob on April 12, 2010, 08:35:39 AM

which will go right to fuel  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif)


http://www.dailyrecord.com/article/20100412/UPDATES01/100412010/Economic+outlook+raises+gas+prices (http://www.dailyrecord.com/article/20100412/UPDATES01/100412010/Economic+outlook+raises+gas+prices)






stitcherbob2010-04-12 13:37:24
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 12, 2010, 10:45:22 AM
Another reason for injection.  Better fuel economy
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on April 12, 2010, 11:23:29 AM
...and from being sidelined all those potential miles trying to find the "GO" switch on those evil l blocks of epoxy  from the Devil's Workshop.
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 12, 2010, 01:53:01 PM
Quote from: Commando1
...and from being sidelined all those potential miles trying to find the "GO" switch on those evil l blocks of epoxy  from the Devil's Workshop.

????????????????????????
 
Hitting the Iron again?
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Stan Paralikis on April 13, 2010, 04:40:54 AM
Steel, Steve.  Steel Reserve.  Get it right.....
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 13, 2010, 07:12:39 PM
I'm running into a delemma
 
The open loop runs a bit leaner than the closed loop.  Go figure.  I did bump the timing a tad and it leaned it a bit.  If the weather holds out, tomorrow I'll bump it one more degree and see what happens.  I got the parts to move the A/F sensor up to the left exhaust pipe near the engine too.  But I can tell, it's trying to lean up.  The computer is capable of 25% + or - compensaton.  I think I may have to get the timing to a point where it won't ping, but will lean out more.  Right now I can tell by the smell of the exhaust and the A/F gauge.
 
But the mileage has gone up, I venture to say I'm up in the 20's now.  Just by the driving and gas gauge I can tell it's come way up.  But I won't tank it up until I see the meter lean out a bit.
 
The A/F is quite active now.  The 5.2 it would rarely show any changes.  Now when on a long decel it shows leaning out quite a bit.  I think the pooter is still learning too
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 27, 2010, 01:02:58 PM
OK. . .I need a fuel rail for a 94 or newer 5.2 or 5.9 Magnum.
 
If anyone can get a line on one. . . . .
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Leaburn Patey on April 27, 2010, 03:04:03 PM
Jack did scrap a 99 5.2,but the rail got junked with the motor (hole in block)
He kept the computer,cab,and box.
 
Title: UPDATE!. .It's time for Polaraco. . I'm goin in
Post by: Steve on April 27, 2010, 06:06:25 PM
I found one.  I got a 2000 rail with the new injectors for 40 bucks.  The 2000 injectors were a 3 nozzel tip allowing the fuel to attomize better.  All I need is a hose to connect to the rail.  I know where one is too. 
 
Now I am trying to find a suitable pressure regulator.  I need to hit 50 PSI to get it right.  It's too bad I sold those damned injectors.  Who knew. . .   The info is so sketchy  on that era, I have had to use logic to piece it together.
 
Instead of using a 1 year only system, I am going to upgrade the rail and injectors to the 50 pounders.  The ECM's are easier to get and less expensive.  I am at the point where I am now starting to put together a home grown system by mixing and matching.  This will make it easier when I do upgrade the computer as I can just use the factory harness and adapt it to the new ECM.
 
The 93 5.9 used an external fuel regulator, located in the tank.  The computer is a 1 year only and i don't want to be in that trap. 
 
Right now it's still running lean, but I disconnected the vacuum line that regulates the fuel pressure on the first common rail and it ran a bit better and richer.  So now I'm at 43 PSI all the time.
 
 
This is way over your head Stan