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Techical Discussions => Tech- - DRIVE TRAIN => Topic started by: Jon Doersch on December 27, 2009, 11:53:00 PM

Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on December 27, 2009, 11:53:00 PM
I have decided that the thing to do with my 62 newport is a complete drivetrain swap. Between the 361 big block, the tranny that needs a rebuild, and the crazy high geared rearend, I get about 8 miles per gallon. I want power, fuel economy, and reliability, so I was thinking a late model dodge/chrysler hemi swap. I am thinking about taking everything from a rollover dodge ram, or somthing like that. I am mostly tracking the engine and tranny, my specific question is what its going to take to swap in the complete rear end assembly. I am tracking it might have to be narrowed and all that, what I was concerned with is addapting it to fit the same leaf springs. Can I remove the spring pads on the old housing and transfer them? Does this question better belong in a hot rod forum? Can anyone think of anything else that will be painful about the rearend install? I was planning on doing most of the build myself, but with all the hostile fire and immenant danger pay, I can probably afford almost anything when I get home....
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on December 28, 2009, 02:07:24 AM
Hey there.  Long time no hear
 
The rear isn't going to fit.  It's way too wide for that body.  Tupically an E body, 70 to 74 would bolt right in..  But the truck is much wider and the spring purches are way off and too big.  You'll have a very low rider in the rear.
 
You can find lots of B body open rears around, most a 276's.  Move the spring purchases on one of those.
 
You think that 361 sucks on fuel, wait until upi put that 350 Hemi in there.
 
I did this to my 62 a long time ago.  Lemme think about this.  Maybe you can find a nice 383 and work it alittle to get what you want.
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Stan Paralikis on December 28, 2009, 03:24:26 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
 
You think that 361 sucks on fuel, wait until upi put that 350 Hemi in there.
He's referring to the new-gen Hemi, you Bozo....
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on December 28, 2009, 03:45:41 AM
I know Nit. . . . They are not that good in carburation, but good with injection if he is using the MDS and all that goop.
 
That's what today's 5.7 Hemi's are!  350's!
 
If he is going to use the computer from the donor, then he will have a real nightmare on his hands.  Then find a 2 wheel drive donor!  He can't use a 4 wheel drive trans in that car. . .
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Stan Paralikis on December 28, 2009, 03:50:59 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
I know Nit. . . .
That's what today's 5.7 Hemi's are!  350's!
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif) Commando12009-12-28 13:54:05
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on December 28, 2009, 06:29:59 AM
Ok. So what about if I find a rollover 300, or magnum with the hemi...The track width should be a lot closer....Although if its that easy to source another C cars rearend then I can just do that. I was just thinking if I already buy the rollover, I would have the rearend...Speaking of, is it possible to take the perches off, or do I have to try and find some that are the same width? By the way, I am planning on doing the whole swap, computer, efi, drive by wire, tranny, tranny computer, fuel tank and pump, the whole nine....
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on December 28, 2009, 06:32:50 AM
Ok wait...I just read the original reply...I can move the purchases....These long days are killing me!
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on December 28, 2009, 06:44:25 AM
They're independant rear suspensions.  But it would definately be a vast improvement over the leaf if you want to go to that much trouble.
 
Measure the rear on the Chrysler.  See if this will help you too.
http://www.moparfins.com/Repairs/8-3-4_Rebuilding/Information_on_Mopar_Rears.htm (http://www.moparfins.com/Repairs/8-3-4_Rebuilding/Information_on_Mopar_Rears.htm)
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on December 28, 2009, 06:50:23 AM
Independant is probably more work than I want to do....The rest of the swap is going to be time consuming enough as it is...I will measure the rearend as soon as I get back from Afghanistan...And yes, I think the article will help, thanks.
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Snotty on December 29, 2009, 06:59:14 PM
A '62 Newport should have a rear of no greater than 2.92-1, 3.23-1 on a RARE occasion.  If you're getting bad mileage I doubt your problem lies there, unless you've swapped the 3rd member for something much higher.
 
The '62s were known for good gas mileage.  The New Yorker won the prize for luxury car class with 18 MPG in '62, a rate I achieved on several occasion in the one I owned, and that with a 413.  If you're running a 361 and stock rear, your problem is not the set-up. 
 
JMO
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on December 29, 2009, 07:20:44 PM
The guy that had the car before me did some stuff to it...undocumented, poor workmanship stuff...Like wierd house paint skulls....Anyway, I am pulling 3800 rpm at 70 on the freeway, so I know the ratio is not stock....I also know that the engine and tranny need a rebuild, so since I would have to pull them anyway, and I am going to have deployment money burning a hole in my pocket, I figured I might go for some fuel injection, and a 5 speed automatic at the same time....My buddy get 20 MPG in his Dodge Ram Hemi Sport on the freeway, and that truck weight at least 5000 pounds....Plus he still has 350 horsepower on tap! Believe me though, the first thing getting changed is the rearend...I was always a fan of 2.73s....Nice highway cruising.
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on December 30, 2009, 07:16:57 AM
I sort of agree with Snotty.  The 413 was a better engine than the 361. 
 
I think you did this already, but try installing electronic ignition on a good distributor.  You're going to get crappy mileage just cruising around the base.  That thing needs to breath and stretch it's legs.  When they get all carboned up, the mileage will fall also.  Use some cylinder decarboning agent, like Sea Foam (Wal-Mart automotive dept.)  and see if that get's the snot back.  Or take it out and just run it down the highway for 300 miles.  I would still sea foam it before the trip though.
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on December 30, 2009, 07:37:01 AM
Did the seafoam thing, and an electronic distributor was one of the first things I swapped. It also has a dual exhaust that is free flowing now, as well as an aluminum manifold and small four barrel carb. I run it on the freeway, but as I said, its roaring at 70. Even at 60 I have to push her to maintain speed....The gears just aren't cut out for highway cruising...I can't help but thinking that a swap to modern mulit port EFI, an overdrive trans, and changing the rear gears would net better economy and reliability than I have now....Plus the great throttle response of EFI is something to get used too....
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on December 30, 2009, 07:38:46 AM
sorry....an electronic ignition, on a new distributor....
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on December 30, 2009, 07:42:25 AM
and the carb works good?
 
You can try what I mentioned and also try leaning out the mixture screws a tad.  They should only be around 1 1/2 turns out from stop.  That will suck down gas too
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on December 30, 2009, 04:16:18 PM
Ok. So seems like the consensus is that I should stick with what I got rather than do the swap. I am a hotrodder more than a restorer, so you guys need to convince me. So shifting gears with this thread, what are the reasons I shouldn't do the swap, and what kind of upgrades are available for what I have to give me better economy while retaining the power. I am tracking a rearend swap for somthing numerically lower (2.73 range), but are there any tranny's that will fit in to give it overdrive? Or do I have to fit a gear vendors...What are the best sources for rebuild kits for the 361? I know this thread probably belongs in a different category now, but I don't know how to do that (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)   Oh and just so everyone is tracking, the car is a 62 Newport with a 361, a button shifted tranny (727?), and a rearend of unknown numerical value (its high)...
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on December 30, 2009, 05:12:47 PM
There's no doubt the 62 frame will handle anything you throw at it.  But retrofitting a C, and a 62 Plucked chicken is technically not a C, is difficult because nobody makes swap items like motor mounts.
 
You could get yourself a 440 which will bolt right in and a later 727.  Imperial Industries makes a conversion kit from Push button to the lever on the trans.
 
That's a start.  Something to comsider and it's all bolt in.  The only thing you have to mess with is the drive shaft.
 
You can buy axles which will bolt into your rear and get a used 3.23 rear carrier.  an 8 3/4 is an 8 3/4.  Change the rear backing plates or get an AAJBrakes rear disc conversion.  If you did that, then you don't need to change the rear axles.
 
How's that for starters?
 
BTW, but new springs in the rear too.  Alcan in Colorado is a good choic for a custom spring.  I would also do the lower control arm bushings.  It will give you stability and help handle the extra weight of the RB.
 
The 361, done right is a pretty torquey little motor.  There's plenty available for it
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on December 30, 2009, 05:32:25 PM
Well bolt in is nice, but I am not overly concerned with that. I can do a lot of custom work myself, and given the amount of stuff to fix on this car, I kind of have to anyway. I know I will probably get flamed for it given the nature or this forum, but I am already planning a Mustang II front suspension swap for this car in the near future. If I factor in the cost of reduoing the whole front suspension, getting new tortion bars, and upgrading to front disks, its actually cheaper to go with a Mustang II....So fabrication and swaps don't scare me, even if there aren't parts available...I guess I will just have to look into the costs involved with all the different swaps. I have LOTS of time, and a little less money, so a loong swap process isn't an issue....I will split this up into some smaller threads when I get the chance....I am sure lots of people will have lots to say about my suspension swap....
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on December 30, 2009, 06:10:59 PM
If that were a B Body, I would say no problem with the mustang front.  However, the subframes were not built to withstand all that.  The weight is distributed to the mid section via the T Bars..   I saw a few of these done with Nova and Mustang front ends.  If the front fenders weren't buckled, the frames were cracked under the fire walls or the fenders had buckles and tears in them.
 
Yeah, guys say they do it, but they don't work out as well as rebuilding what you have.  I'm not trying to trash your idea, but the guys that did it, don't drive them much.  Don't forget too, the Chrysler weighs 1000# more than the mustang.  The mustangs front end will eventually turn to mush.
 
Same thing with these guys that put air suspension in them.  It tears up the car,
 
See the B and A Body have integrated front fenterwells.  Allot stronger.  The big cars, have floating inner fenders.
 
If you did anything, maybe clip the front like I did to my 50.  Start here and go backwards and forwards as you please.  http://www.moparfins.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2562&PN=5 (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2562&PN=5)  This worked out pretty well, but the two bodies were similar in size and wheel base.
 
Maybe you can find a B Body Sedan and clip the front.  Then you can mount anything you want. 
 
The old man has been around allot of this stuff. . .I've torn many a Mopar apart and have an engineering degree.  That's why I never bothered to do such a thing.  The integrety just isn't there in the full size.  But as they are, they will take a beating and keep delivering.   There are all sorts of options available for B bodies.  Even Rack and Pinion
 
By the way, the 61-62 Frames were prone to cracking around the steering boxes.  In 63 they made some major changes to the sub frames.
 
Incase you hadn't noticed, I am trying to talk you out of the Mushtang front end. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)  You can do what you want, but I want you to be happy with it for a long time.
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Snotty on December 31, 2009, 08:14:24 AM
Quote from: gearheadjd
Plus he still has 350 horsepower on tap! Believe me though, the first thing getting changed is the rearend...I was always a fan of 2.73s....Nice highway cruising.
 
You don't need to change the rearend just the third-member, unless someone swapped out the 8.75 for another rear entirely.   I have a 2.76 open 8.75 third-member that I will never use if you are interested in it.  It has the desired 489 case.  I took it out of  my Newport.  I don't know if you would have to modify your axles.  '62s came with the pressed axles; I don't know if you need to get the newer type or not.  (Others will know.)   But again, if your rear has been swapped who knows what you now have.
 
We could work a deal if you'd want it.
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Snotty on December 31, 2009, 08:24:13 AM
Quote from: gearheadjd
I know I will probably get flamed for it given the nature or this forum, but I am already planning a Mustang II front suspension swap for this car in the near future. If I factor in the cost of reduoing the whole front suspension, getting new tortion bars, and upgrading to front disks, its actually cheaper to go with a Mustang II..
 
Your '62 is one heavy car!  I really doubt a Pinto (what a Mustang II is) suspension would be strong enough.  There's also this: every person I know who has attempted to swap the front suspension on an early '60s Chrysler has regretted it.  When it's finished they have not liked the ride and the cost was for more than what they expected it to be.  The suspensions on these big cars were beefier than any Mopar product except for Imperial and trucks.  Look under a B Body and then take a peek at your car's suspension - they are night and day.
 
I'm not bagging on the Ford stuff, I'm cautioning against what I think would be a mistake.  All parts needed to rebuild your front end are available.  Time-wise it would take you less to rebuild/upgrade your car than to swap it. 
 
Obviously I'm suggesting you rebuild your factory front.
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Herman on December 31, 2009, 10:08:27 AM
Why would you need to buy NEW torsion bars?
What's wrong with the current ones?

Why not start out with a puny little Mustang II in the first place?
Sounds even more cheaper than modifying everything on a car where nothing is easy. ;)

By the way, I get 17mpg with a 500ci engine, with DUAL 625cfm carbs, stock transmission and 3.23 geared 8-3/4 in the rear. Oh, the car weighs about 4500 lbs aswell... it's a 1960 Chrysler NewYorker.
I still need to connect the vacuum advance on the ignition so I can run some more economic numbers.



Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on December 31, 2009, 10:34:18 AM
well   (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif)
 
Lazy ass
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: ed on December 31, 2009, 12:48:14 PM
I think someone swapped out the third member.Sounds like you may have at least a 4.10 in it.
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Snotty on January 01, 2010, 12:23:16 PM
[/QUOTE]
 
Ooooo, I hate you!  I'm getting 9-12 with a mostly stock 440 and 2.76 gears!  Ack!!!
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Stan Paralikis on January 02, 2010, 02:28:36 AM
By the way, I get 17mpg [/QUOTE]
That's in Euros.  What is it in U.S.? (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif)
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on January 04, 2010, 06:34:20 AM
Kind of the response I was expecting...Let me be clearer than I have been. When I say mustang II, I mean that style, not the actual components. I had fully planned on using parts that are beefy enough to keep up with a heavier car. Also, I hadn't planned on a half ass cut and hack. Fully boxing the frame, and adding subframe connectors was all in the plan. The kit that I have been looking at from Heidts comes with new brakes and a rack and pinion, so when I say it will be cheaper, I have done the research to know that it will be. I need a complete rebuild of all the steering and suspension components, plus a swap of the brakes is in order. The reason for going the way I was going is not only to upgrade the brakes, not only find a way around the torsion bars that I cannot find replacements for, not only replace the failing suspension components, but also upgrade all of the steering at the same time. Since the engine would already be out for a longinsh period of time as I swap in a latemodel engine and tranny combo, I might as well do everything all at once. So time isn't an issue. As for money, I sourced a complete pullout for 3500 that comes with the tranny and engine plus EVERYTHING to make them work. As for time or hassle, I want the BEST components, whatever that may be. If the chassis really can't take it, then I will look at different options, but the tortion bars and old stearing and brakes aren't offering much in the way of upgrades....
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: ed on January 04, 2010, 06:44:04 AM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley24.gif)
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Snotty on January 04, 2010, 09:20:49 AM
Quote from: gearheadjd
Kind of the response I was expecting...Let me be clearer than I have been. When I say mustang II, I mean that style, not the actual components. I had fully planned on using parts that are beefy enough to keep up with a heavier car. ..
 
If you got the response you expected then you should not have said Mustang II. 
 
I'm outie...
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Stan Paralikis on January 04, 2010, 09:43:52 AM
(http://www.massmopar.com/yabb/Smilies/lipsrsealed.gif)
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on January 04, 2010, 10:10:57 AM
MMMMM
 
Still stuck on that front end idea. . .  Again and it has been confirmed, the sub frame will not handle it.  There are only 6 bolts holding the whole frame to the front end.  With the T Bar setup, the weight is distributed back to the strongest area of the frame.  From experience, I am telling you, [color=#ff0000 size=3]don't do it[/color].  Rebuilding the front end on that car, will not cost $3500, even with the firm feel steering box.
 
T Bars are readily available from Firm Feel and Just Suspensions.  If the car looks like it's sagging, it's probably because the lower bushings are gone and the T Bars need adjustment.  You CAN adjust the original bars.  Or you can accomplish better handling with a new set, which have a better variable rate than the stock ones.
 
There are plenty of Disc Brake conversions around.  
 
You are looking at $3500 for a kit.  But you are not taking into consideration all the modifications you'll have to do and the new, bad stresses you are puting on the sub-frame.  You'll have plenty of incidentials to invest. . . .  And nobody makes a kit to just bolt in for one of thise pigs.  They're land barges and always will be.
 
You start putting bunches of extra power and start beating it, and it will come around and bite you in the ass.
 
Been doing this for 50 years.  Been there, done that.  But it's your car.  These kids on the other forums don't know these cars.   This old mans club is telling you not to do it.  You are wasting a pile of money.
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Stitcherbob on January 04, 2010, 01:24:39 PM
Plus, I haven't seen one magazine article on doing this swap.......only AlterKtion and the other K frame that's out on the market......I get all the streetrod mags and Mopar mags....nobody did it, so maybe it can't be done. Or shouldn't be done.

Case in point: I once spent almost $1000 converting my electric R/C  monster truck from stock to gas powered. It broke everything in the driveline no matter how expensive the parts were. A few months later I had it running pretty good, but by then you could buy a complete gas one already engineered and indestructible for a lot less money......hard lesson learned.

Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on January 04, 2010, 04:16:25 PM
Ok....First off, the 3500 is for the engine and trans. The front suspension is 1700. If the car won't handle it then it won't. I am not set on anything, I just have ideas that I wanted to get opinions on. I kind of figured that I would get this response, but forums are for discussion....I am not trying to ruffle anyones feathers, just trying to figure out the best way to upgrade a suspension with very little aftermarket support....
 
And I realize in the future that I should keep all of my ideas and questions in different posts to keep things more clear....
 
Lastly, I tend to hotrod stuff, not restore stuff....Sorry
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Stitcherbob on January 04, 2010, 04:27:46 PM

No ruffling! This is a good discussion! I know the Mustang 2 suspension is an upgrade....but for eliminating the old fashioned transverse leaf spring early Ford suspensions.....the Mopar Volare front suspension with transverse torsion bars is a popular upgrade for the F100 Ford pickups, but it is not a real good suspension in itself.....just better than the Ford. I myself like the torsion bar setup that's already there, with maybe a rack & pinion steering upgrade when they make them for our C bodies (A ,B & E are already out there). That would get a lot of weight off of the front, and make room for headers. The new K frame-eliminating suspensions were mainly for header and transmission clearance , along with oil pan room when putting a large Hemi in one of those Mopar bodies. I don't think there is anything to be gained by removing all of the stock stuff....unless you want to be the first to splice in a complete front and rear suspension from a modern Charger/Magnum along with your new Hemi install.....take lots of pictures for the site if you do that swap!(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
stitcherbob2010-01-04 21:31:34
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on January 04, 2010, 04:34:50 PM
I don't have a problem with a Hot Rod. . .  As long as it's in taste. . .Some people have just flat out butchered a perfectly good plucked Chicken and then couldn't get rid of it because they screwed it up so bad.
 
No problems with the Hemi. . . .  None of us are fighting that, it's just the front end.
 
But with the right parts and upgrades, you can make that one hello a fast rider on the existing suspension.
 
We'll help ya. . .  But let's keep it in one spot.  I think I'll move this over to Members Projects.  Good place for it.  It will be an ongoing discussion, I am sure.
 
Research Research and more Research.  The electronic trans is going to be tough and you won't be able to use the factory computer setup.  There's 4 of them in a car.  I have 7 in my Diesel!  Be real careful how you select the control.  I think you want to talk to Rick Eherenburgh at Mopar Action Magazine.  I think he has this figured out already.  I'll let him know you will be writing him.  I can't give out his private email addy, but you can address him in the tech section on their web site.
 
Now that that is all over. . .Let's move forward.
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Stan Paralikis on January 05, 2010, 03:56:53 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
.Some people have just flat out butchered a perfectly good plucked Chicken and then couldn't get rid of it because they screwed it up so bad.

Ahem....(http://www.massmopar.com/yabb/Smilies/whistling.gif)

 
 
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: firedome on January 05, 2010, 04:03:37 AM

I agree with dose guys, there's nothing wrong with mods WHEN it's an
improvement... the torsion bar suspension was/is a superior design
technically (there's a reason turbine powered M1 Abrams tanks use it) , is
adjustable and rebuildable,  and is easily performance
upgraded...as they say, if it ain't broke...
firedome2010-01-05 09:06:04
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on January 05, 2010, 05:27:38 AM
The reason the tank uses it is because it has tracks and they had to come up with some solutions to keep up with the weight, although strickly speaking the tank setup is not the same as it is a transverse setup that links the road wheels from one side to the other...I don't doubt that torsion bars are better in heavy duty/truck setups, which is why most new trucks have them. Changing a torsion bar on a tank is a LOT harder than on the car as well...Ask me how I know (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)
 
That being said, I can't find any parts for my particular application, from anyone...Just Suspension, Firm Feel, PST....None of them have my exact application. What cars have suspensions that interchange? I can't really call right now, given my current deployed status...Has anyone actually gotten parts for a 62 full size from any of these companies?
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on January 05, 2010, 05:49:23 AM
Quote
Has anyone actually gotten parts for a 62 full size from any of these companies?
 
Oh hell ya.  at Just suspensions, write to Luke or Jayme.  They have the parts. 
 
If you have a Newport or 300 the BJ's are one diameter.  New Porker are larger.  I can't remember if the Lower Ball Joints have the arm or are thread in now.
 
They're web site is terrible.  But they don't sell that Chinese or India junk.  I strongly reccommend their bushings, and talk to them about upgrading your sway bar.
 
POLARACO2010-01-05 10:50:06
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on January 05, 2010, 05:59:55 AM
OK...Excellent. I will write them...
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on January 05, 2010, 06:27:44 AM
Tell them Polaraco from Mopar Fins sent you.  My real name is Steve Hobby.  They know that name
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Guests on February 10, 2010, 09:41:25 PM
Gearheadjd, maybe if things were put into perspective as far as your front end goes it will make a little sense why you don't want to waste your money on a Mustang II front end. Physically speaking, the front end she has right now is about as beefy as a Dakota pickup. This kind of means, and with all seriousness, putting that Mustang II front end under her is equivalent to taking your friend's Ram truck and putting a K car front end under it, or putting a Pinto front end under a Lincoln Continental. Believe it or not, the torsion bar suspension is one of the finest non-racetrack suspensions designed, but I agree with you, factory did not put large enough bars in them, but believe me, my 68 Charger has 1.14 bars in her (stock is .998) and it was a world of difference over anything else I could have put under her for $250. I am sure all your bushings are shot, all the joints more than worn, and $500 for all new front end brake components would be nicer than worrying about the strength of some cool Pete and Jake Mustang II front suspension, that's just going backwards in quality and you don't sound like that is your intention. You won't be able to set your ride height without cutting springs or adding spring clamps/spacers, all you need is a 3/4 inch socket and a couple minutes under the car and adjust what you want.

Rear end: Yeah, you have 3.91s or 4.10s, and yes, they will eat up the gas and push that 361 even if it is a winding motor. I like the 361 myself, calculating for a stroker 400 with 440 rods and what looks like I can't get a 4.125 overbore piston with the proper deck height, so still looking into that, but highway gears are my favorite, too (I have a 64 361 out of a Custom 880, nice closed chamber heads, ported, polished, edged, great heads.)
 






If you are going to do the Hemi and tranny and rear end, IRS out back isn't anything difficult, you have frame rails to tie it together with, almost a cut and paste thing with metal, width isn't a major issue, IRS has driveline tube axles, they just need extended, not that difficult to fabricate. Might need to alter a little floorboards inside for the tranny, not sure how big the tranny is compared to the 727 pushbutton, but hey, you have gages to worry about, engine and electronics, and yes, Gearvendors is just down the street from me, but sorry, I don't think they are worth the price. Good units, but a little pricey for an overdrive unit. 
 
dana442010-02-11 02:44:36
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Snotty on February 11, 2010, 10:43:31 AM
Ed, the last post on this thread was Jan. 5.  I think it's dead....
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on February 11, 2010, 11:12:24 AM
It's a pipedream anyway
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Guests on February 11, 2010, 12:00:47 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
It's a pipedream anyway

Pipe dreams are only dead when a person dies(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif).
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: firedome on February 12, 2010, 05:16:34 AM
Or as they say, ya gotta have a Dream to have a Dream Come True!

Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on February 12, 2010, 05:28:50 AM
We're not telling him what he wants to hear
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Guests on February 12, 2010, 08:28:27 AM
A big part of it is having to go by what people write or read in magazines, and believe me, when you read the ads that say something is the greatest thing since sliced bread, well, what do you have to compare it to? The Pete and Jake front ends are good for an old 3100-3500lb coupe, but once you get into the 60s barges, well, not such a good idea. Then there is the figuring that a new motor in an old car is great, until things just don't fit. It's one thing to put a SBChevy into anything including a TR4 or Midget (the 5.7 is actually smaller than a SBChevy by about an inch all around by the way), so yeah, it is the SBC replacement other than initial cost, but the new automatics are larger instead of smaller, and that IRS would be a cool rear end to install (got a frame, one can build a cradle to fit it properly, easy but time consuming to widen or shorten it, but it is a doable thing), and then fighting with the floorboards isn't hard either, just have to take the project one step at a time and make  an initial plan to accomplish the job.
 
As far as the 361 goes, I have been batting around the stroker 361 for a few years, just figured it out this minute, there are 400 SBChevy 4.125 and overbore pistons with a deckheight of 1.433, a 426 Hemi rod of 6.860, 413/426(wedge)/440 crank of 3.750 stroke would give a deck height clearance of .010 and the only problem is the piston pin being smaller to work on. This combo comes up to 9.1:1 until the piston pins are made smaller, 1.83 rod/stroke ratio is cool, just have to work on that piston pin size. Gotta keep working on the combination, but I'll get it.
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on February 13, 2010, 11:40:06 PM
   As far as I was concerned the the thread isn't dead...You all have to look at where I am posting from...Being deployed has a way of keeping you from the computer every once in a while...Especially when you are in a combat MOS...Anyway...
   As far as not hearing what I want to, I wouldn't have posted if I wasn't up for suggestion. Forgive me if everyone has to explain the reasoning behind there posts, but I want to know why, not just what...I don't really understand how wanting to have a discussion about this has turned so many sour about the whole idea, I just want to play devils advocate about some things.
   Case in point: You all convinced me about the old suspension. Just because I don't bow down to the all knowing instantly doesn't mean that I can't be persuaded. With all due respect, I have met and work with a lot of people who aren't as good as they think they are who have been in business for ever....So if I take a little bit to convince, sorry.
   Also, I have been convinced about not doing the new hemi swap as well. Not because I think it would be too hard, or because I am afraid of CAN BUS gremlins or anything, but because the 361 will give me all that I want it too after all...
   As for this being a pipe dream...Anyone every tell you that doing a latemodel swap into your Polara was a dream Steve?
   Moving on, I would still like to hook the 361 to an overdrive tranny, as I don't like the idea of spending 2000 on the gear vendors unit....Are there any companies that make kits, or do I have to put the swap together myself?


Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on February 14, 2010, 06:47:59 AM
You'll have to excuse us old folk. . . .  We forget you're in the Fine country of Irac/Iran
 
You also have to remember we've seen these discussions hundreds of times before, so don't take any of this to heart.  It's happened too many times where someone throws out a bunch of smoke and makes everyone scramble.  Only to have them die off.
 
As far as polaraco is concerned, the engine was a drop in, the trans needed a home mead cross member and it was ODP1.  I did the whole car from tow home to dirving it in 9 months.  I was planning that project for a long time and knew what I had to do without advice.
 
As far as long time shops are concerned, you got that right.  The people that brag about what they know, and their cirtifications, you know. . .The mechanics who parade around with patches all over them, looking like a General.  Those are the ones you REALLY want to avoid.
 
I'm a pretty good mechanic and on hell of a logical engineer.  But I don't brag about that because when it comes to math, I suck.  I don't brag about what I know either.  I don't know it all.  Ed can tell you about the number of times I admitted to things I didn't know
 
POLARACO2010-02-14 11:53:34
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Stitcherbob on February 14, 2010, 07:09:39 AM
First of all, Thankyou for what you're doing for America in that Godforsaken place and be safe over there.
Next, I never want to discourage inventive thinking unless it will send the person down an expensive path to heartache....been there done that.
The front end swap was not a good idea, but the late model Hemi swap is. A wrecked base Hemi Charger or Magnum will give you an independent rear suspension you can work with, and the wiring harness should be about the length you need to retrofit into your car (headlights to taillights....everything has to be connected and working or the computer won't read correctly.) Don't be afraid to use the MB auto trans, it will be fine behind it's original Hemi. I don't think the new Mopar's front end will work without major beefing of the front end sheetmetal in your unibody car, but maybe the rack and pinion setup could be fitted with some work. Mopar Action and Mopar Collector's Guide are good magazines that have embraced the modern Hemi-into-older-musclecars and I would try to find as many back issues as you can (ebay?).
The 361 has been degradated by every Mopar mag as not worth the effort, as a 383-400 would give you a much better advantage starting with 22 or more extra cubic inches....
http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/quest1/361.html (http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/quest1/361.html)





Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on February 14, 2010, 07:12:42 AM
Bob's right about that.  AND!  361's are all over the place.  You can get one cheap, and build it while you drive the car.
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Guests on February 14, 2010, 03:40:53 PM
Jarhead, as you can see, I'm retired Navy (three weeks ago was my one year anniversary of 26yrs active duty, and I did a tour in Habbiniyah/Fallujah '06-'07), so thanks for filling my empty space, hated the dust, hated it when it got wet more.
 
If you look at the 361 posting under engines (take a look at it, I am seriously thinking of doing it with my 361 that is aging alongside the house (swiped the lobes off a cam of the original bore 225,000mile engine, pissed me off), I have a good solution that can work for the 361 to pump out 450 cubic inches (.030 over) and 457 (.060 over) if you want to have a real sleeper, just isnt' an ofered stroker kit but can more than be accmplished off the shelf and a little tiny bit of machining done, nothing that is crazy at all.
There is another tranny solution that is being done quite a bit and has been around for about 12-14years and that is the truck 4spd auto, several kits out there that adapt them to big block bolt pattern, the rest of the kickdown and overdrive setup is all minor and doesn't require a computer to do it, minor rear tranny mound work (and they probably have some kind of supplemental mount by this day and age). You are right, GearVendors are expensive, and for that price I would like to have  a new transmission and the overdrive. May or may not need to do a slight alteration of the floorboard at the rear of the tranny due to the overdrive size, the A and B bodies need a little bump done back there, your 62 may have enough room, won't know until it is measured. There are several companies that take this swap seriously and it is very viable, the tranny will handle more than you could throw at it so that isn't an issue, but since your driveline should be ball and trunion, of course a new driveline would need to be made, not a major issue either.
 
As far as the Hemi goes, after about 2004ish the computer had "body computers" that controlled and monitored everything, an earlier one doesn't have that issue, a truck Hemi would be easier to find than a charger sedan or 300C engine/tranny, and if the Hemi had a manual tranny behind it, the computer will then be able to handle any transmission you want to drop behind her, like keeping a small block 727 and adding those highway gears back to the rear end.  Doing the charger sedan/300C IRS in back would require a little bit of math and bracketry/geometry/load analysis, and not that it can't be done, but it would take some time and thought to make it happen. You want to make her carve corners at her weight, there is a solution to that with the leaf springs but it requires a little bit of minor cutting and welding but not serious at all, and I can tell you about it if you are interested, this has been confirmed by a Chrysler engineer friend of mine, when I described what to do he simply said, "Yeah, NSTM specs...........", to which I went into a little bit of a fog, I knew it was real.
 
So here are some more options, you can hash them out, pick and choose your combination and we can get even more specific with it if you are interested in some more specifics, to which I am glad you dropped that IFS thought.
 
Here's an old story that was printed several years after Mopar made the first torsion bar front end in the late 50s.
 
Guy walks into the Plymouth dealership and says he wants to test drive the new coupe in the showroom. He plopped down $100 deposit to show his seriousness for the purchase, the dealer gets the keys, drives the car off the lot and the two switch places. There was a 392 under the hood, 727 and limited slip behind it. The guy drives through town nice and calm and towards the outskirts, the dealer getting a little nervous, this was turning out to be a long drive, but the guy was pretty calm, not doing anything radical, enjoying the accessories and buttons, asking questions, things like this. About twenty minutes into the drive they came to a four way corner, to which was a new Ford coupe and another guy and passenger, almost identical as those in the Plymouth, the passengers were different, drivers twins. The cars pulled up side by side, revved the engines to each other and took off down the winding road, through the hills and valleys, around corners, the Ford on the tail of the Plymouth 90percent of the time, speeds passing 100mph, tires squealing around corners. Just as fast as it started, it all ended, the Plymouth driving back into town, the guy asking more questions about financing, down payment, warranty, all the way to the dealership. When they finally arrived at the front door, the guy's twin brother walked around the corner and said, "I want mine in red." 
 
Now, the story is true, the two brothers argued over which car was better, they just needed to test drive the cars to do a comparison of which one they would buy. The torsion bar suspension was far superior than the Ford coil springs, and again, two sales were made vice one. 
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on February 14, 2010, 04:24:11 PM
Jarhead. . . .  LOL (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
They aint go nuttin on us old Army guys
C Company, 2nd Platoon, 1st Squad.  That's all I can remember.  (things tend to get blocked)  I remember allot of pain though
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Guests on February 14, 2010, 08:35:52 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
Jarhead. . . .  LOL (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
They aint go nuttin on us old Army guys

I have a fifty fifty chance of having it right, either jarhead or grunt (and absolutely no disrespect intended whatsoever either way, honest, I know what he is up to over "there"). I was in Charlie Company Navy Combat Battalion Guantanamo Bay Cuba watching the terrorists for seven months myself (I know, different Charlie Company, 1st Cav was down there with me, good bunch of guys), (Dennis, Katrina, and a couple other asshole storms went almost over the top of us that year before they hit the states), but other than that, I won't put into print who I worked with while boots on ground Iraq, no need to go there, only in person. dana442010-02-15 01:37:14
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on February 15, 2010, 10:48:27 PM
Well I am not a jarhead (just a gearhead), and I have a little too much rank to really consider myslelf a grunt although I work exclusively with them....The unit doesn't matter, but the place is southern afghanistan.....
 
As for the car, its looking like the 361 stays, its just a matter of how much work gets done to it...A slightly bigger cam, and maybe some heads....Can anyone recomend a good set of heads for a mild 361? That should really be all I need to get in the mid 300s for horsepower...or am I reading too much into the original 280 HP rating? As for the tranny, I will start looking at the four speed truck swap....Gotta get an overdrive...
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Stan Paralikis on February 16, 2010, 02:47:20 AM
Quote from: gearheadjd
As for the tranny, I will start looking at the four speed truck swap....Gotta get an overdrive...
If you got the dough, go straight to a Tremec 5 speed.
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on February 16, 2010, 04:02:47 AM
I like tremecs...in my small, light, nimble road race car...I was thinking more along the lines of something I could relax and cruise around in....
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Stitcherbob on February 16, 2010, 06:09:15 AM
don't mind Stan......he has a thing for manual trans C bodies

Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Guests on February 16, 2010, 06:41:33 AM
Quote from: gearheadjd
Well I am not a jarhead (just a gearhead), and I have a little too much rank to really consider myslelf a grunt although I work exclusively with them....The unit doesn't matter, but the place is southern afghanistan.....
 

One of two ways to go with a stocker 361 size, pistons themselves is the difficulty especially in an overbore. The only 4.125 pistons out there are SBChevy 400 pistons and the deck height is way off the mark, which is why the stroker info. Custom pistons isn't going to be difficult, just expensive in other than cast aluminum stock, but if you don't need an overbore no problem with stock pistons, hone and moly rings work well. You have closed chamber heads and they do really well with porting, they have 2.08 intake and exhaust valves are large enough to breathe well, otherwise Edelbrock aluminum heads work really well with this engine, 2.14 intakes and 1.81 exhaust right out of the box, but you have to add adjustable rockers to them, this package is about $1600-1800, maybe a little more, but a nice package nonetheless. This and a nice 265-275degree duration cam with a .475 lift gets you right around 375hp without sweating the small stuff, but I would take the time to redo the bottom end stock (more than strong enough, just old and wouldn't last long with the extra power),  a few durability upgrades would be a good idea, like double roller timing chain, Hemi (high volume) oil pump, windage tray, dual plane intake, electronic ignition, carb in the 700-750cfm brings you right up to around 410hp+ and more than enough torque. You will need to make sure the crank has the pilot bearing hole in the back, not positive if it already there or not, but a Tremac 5spd manual would be sweet, new driveline a must (no brainer there) and a 8.75 rear with 3.23s would be really nice, plenty of gear that way. Update to larger diameter torsion bars, new bushings and ball joints and you will be very happy with her.
 
dana442010-02-16 11:43:12
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Stan Paralikis on February 16, 2010, 07:26:49 AM
Quote from: stitcherbob
don't mind Stan......he has a thing for manual trans C bodies
And the problem is.............................?
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on February 16, 2010, 08:23:37 AM
Ed mentioned porting the heads.  This is something you can do yourself.  I have a thread running in the engine section on updating a small block.  In the process of building a torque monster, 360 Magnum.
 
Before you do the porting, ask yourself what you want to get out of the car.  Is it going to be a street car, or a track car.  You want it to look and sound tough, then I would think what I am doing is exactly what you should doo.  I am working the engine for it's peak efficiency between idle and 3000 RPM.  Ed taught me porting on line. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
 
Ed, he sounds like ARMY!  OoooRah
 
That's it  1st Calvery.  I was there such a short time before I got a bunch of holes, I forgot.  Nam sucked.
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Snotty on February 16, 2010, 08:31:24 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
 
That's it  1st Calvery. 
 
Oh Stevo, Calvary is where Jesus died.  The people of the US Army serve in the Cavelry.
 
I got chewed out for that very distinction by an Athiest Professor when I was in college.  To this day I always hear (or read) where people make the same mistake.  Had to rib you for it!   (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley12.gif)
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Snotty on February 16, 2010, 08:32:33 AM
I may have spelled Cav wrong, but that's the easiest way to remember the difference - Air Cav.
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on February 16, 2010, 09:39:22 AM
Thanks Scott (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)

Just goes to show where my mind is. . . .  LOL

But I really didn't know the difference


Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Guests on February 16, 2010, 09:44:15 AM
Nothing wrong with Army, almost as good as a swabby in my book!
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on February 16, 2010, 11:15:59 AM
I noticed you skipped the Marines. . . .  That's a division of the Navy.  LOL

(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif)


Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Guests on February 16, 2010, 11:53:04 AM
Didn't forget them for a second, they are simply doing backup for the Army to begin with. Remember, Marines were commissioned when the First Continental Navy had the slight problem after their first couple battles in 1775 when going into battle, sailors themselves would go ashore or aboard ship to fight the battle, and upon return from these first couple battles announced they were coming home with hurt or dead sailors and had difficulties sailing the ships themselves, so in November of the same year the Marines were commissioned in order to have a fighting force for the Navy battles, along with discipline aboard ships(other than the Master-at-Arms rate). As times progressed, and since the Marines are part of the Navy, under Navy command (which is why there will never be a five star Marine General, just like the Air Force is to the Army), Marines are to take the beaches, Navy delivered (of course), Army to hold land, Air Force to support clearing land and skies to hold it. As it turned out with this GWOT, Marines had no shores to land on and it was determined they too could get into the fight due to its length and the need for more bodies. Additionally there are Navy Combat troops which semi-volunteer to do 4-8month tours for convoys, camp duties and support, and don't for a second forget about the SeaBees, Combat Battalion construction persons under the Navy for the setup, layout, construction and mainenance of bases, runways, civilian reconstruction, and camp security (honorary Seabee here, they are like Marines that can use heavy equipment to say the least). The Coast Guard used to be under the Navy during wartime, then Department of Defense during peacetime, now are part of the Homeland Security Department (for what that is worth).  At one time or another I have worked with all of them, mostly the last 8 years of my 26years.
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on February 16, 2010, 05:48:40 PM
Since the car is going to be mainly for daily driving and cruising comfortably around town, I think that I might look into the mild port work for the stock 361. I would really like to get into some edelbrock heads, but with a background in small block ford and chevy engines, I have some sticker shock at the price....It seems that the only cheap aluminum heads for big block mopars are for racing....I have seen your porting posts Steve, I will look at them again....I am a little concerned with the pistons as I haven't had the heads off too look at the bores yet...Hopefully everything is good and I won't have to do any major work...I kind of like the idea of keeping the whole combo on the milder side with no more than 350 or so horsepower...Plus I still am looking into some kind of fuel injection....
In other news....I have been in contact with Phoenix Transmission and they have a solution to the big block mopar and overdrive auto dilemna. The best way to do this according to them is to use an adapter plate and (brace yourself) a 700-R4 out of a chevy. According to them the 700-R4 fits in the space left by a 727 wihout any problem, and requires no massaging of the tranny tunnel. Plus both trannys are have about the same strength, and a 700-R4 is for the most part cheaper. The Mopar overdrive trannys have to be adapted to the big block anyway, so there really isn't an easy way to do this swap....
 
As far as Marines go...I think those guys are great. For the most part all the guys in all the branches who are in a combat job are awesome. The "can do" attitude is everywhere....What sets Marines apart (at least the ones I have been around) is the support elements. They still have that kind of attitude. Some of the rear echelon guys in the Army act like we aren't in a war zone or something.....




Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Stitcherbob on February 16, 2010, 05:55:36 PM
http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/quest1/NEW_PORT_or_SWAP_HEADS.html (http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/quest1/NEW_PORT_or_SWAP_HEADS.html)


Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Guests on February 16, 2010, 07:15:06 PM
Quote from: gearheadjd
Since the car is going to be mainly for daily driving and cruising comfortably around town, I think that I might look into the mild port work for the stock 361. I would really like to get into some edelbrock heads, but with a background in small block ford and chevy engines, I have some sticker shock at the price....It seems that the only cheap aluminum heads for big block mopars are for racing....I have seen your porting posts Steve, I will look at them again....I am a little concerned with the pistons as I haven't had the heads off too look at the bores yet...Hopefully everything is good and I won't have to do any major work...I kind of like the idea of keeping the whole combo on the milder side with no more than 350 or so horsepower...Plus I still am looking into some kind of fuel injection....
In other news....I have been in contact with Phoenix Transmission and they have a solution to the big block mopar and overdrive auto dilemna. The best way to do this according to them is to use an adapter plate and (brace yourself) a 700-R4 out of a chevy. According to them the 700-R4 fits in the space left by a 727 wihout any problem, and requires no massaging of the tranny tunnel. Plus both trannys are have about the same strength, and a 700-R4 is for the most part cheaper. The Mopar overdrive trannys have to be adapted to the big block anyway, so there really isn't an easy way to do this swap....
 
As far as Marines go...I think those guys are great. For the most part all the guys in all the branches who are in a combat job are awesome. The "can do" attitude is everywhere....What sets Marines apart (at least the ones I have been around) is the support elements. They still have that kind of attitude. Some of the rear echelon guys in the Army act like we aren't in a war zone or something.....





How about these for SBC/SBF prices, $899 fully assembled aluminum heads from a company called 440source.com. Good flow, good price, good parts, what else can one ask for? Check them out, new stainless and hardened, bronzed, springs, the works. If you don't want the 361 heads after the fact, I'll pay for shippint to take them off your hands, I love the closed chamber heads and nobody wants them for some reason. Heck, I'll even give you a little extra for taking the time to send them to me, I'm fair. 
 
Hughes has a nice cam HUG HEH1019BL listed under the RB engines. .461/.489 and 112 LSA, duration is within the limits needed for EFI conversion without it going haywire, and this is actually a real nice profile for low/medium power where you want it. I had a very similar one in my 68 Charger with more duration (yeah, 64 Custom 880 361 and six pack carb setup, but won't tell my application), basically an RB engine RV cam in this case, great for the 361 engine size. For an intake, use a stock manifold until you go EFI, then you want to go Torker or Tarantula single plane manifold and throttle body, injectors actually have a boss location in the manifolds already, just tap and clamp. This head and cam setup will give you a nice sound through dual mufflers, idle pretty smooth, good bottom end power and right within the cruise range for highway use (what with your gears, no, I don't think NASCAR can do that), but if you get your highway gears, this cam would be good for idle to 3400rpm, and still a little extra if you needed it without worrying about it.
 
700R4, believe it or not, is a good choice, even if I do say so myself, easy to adapt, easy to set up kickdown, and a crossmember and driveline is not a big deal. I have to admit, also, that it has proved itself, it has been pretty much trouble-free, and hey, there are adapter plates for them already, and for an automatic (you were talking Tremac 5spd a little bit ago), sounds good to me, you have my support.
 
 
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Guests on February 16, 2010, 07:36:27 PM
[/QUOTE]

Getting ready to duck and cover(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif), I do not under any circumstances think dropping the open chambered (906,452, etc, they are all the same after porting, no advantage one over the other)heads on a 361 is a good idea....UNLESS you intend to supercharge or put a turbocharger on the engine, it does drop the compression down to 7.4:1, way too much of a dog to make it worth the work and wasted cost.
 
The next misnomer is the hardened seat junk. Mopar built their engines with quality metals and the valves will not burn like ford or chevy, or mushroom into the heads. This applies to B/RB all the way through 1972 when they started actually adding hardened seats (stories vary, 1972-1974). I have over 225,000miles on a set of 361 heads with two valve grinds in between, original valves, first ground at 120,000miles. I touched them up when I bought the motor about 5,000miles later when I had bronze guides put in, and at 225,000miles I replaced two exhaust valves when the machinist "convinced me" the stems on two of them were out of tolerance. No seats, new seals, seats not needed and don't let them bullfeathers you into believing it is needed.
 
 Next, 361s had 4bbl intakes, swapping to a spreadbore or thermoquad style does not improve anything other than having more vacuum plugs in the ports, and one doesn't need those. 2.5 exhaust is good, no problem with that, HP manifolds are fine for the street, headers aren't needed, just an extra cost unless you are racing. or want to look cool.
 
I know this is Rick E's answer, and sorry sir, some things just don't apply all the time. If it were a SBF or SBC, then I would definitely agree about the heads and intake upgrade, port matching stock manifold to head ports will fix all flow problems and still beat the BBF, BBC, or BBBOP.
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Steve on February 17, 2010, 07:30:42 AM
361's were 2 BBL as well.  I'll bet the domination of them had the Strongberg on them.  Frankly, I don't recall seeing a stock 4 BBL 361.  Yer not thinking LA are you?


Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on February 17, 2010, 07:53:24 AM
It had a two barrel on it when I got it...now its got a edelbrock aluminum dual plane intake and a small holley street avenger carb....And I was kind of worried that the aluminum heads were going to be too much for a more mild motor...
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Guests on February 17, 2010, 10:43:36 AM
No. Aluminum heads, the ones I showed on 440source.com, with an 80cc chamber compared to stock closed chamber head of 78.5, possibly a hair smaller, but the improved flow and a small cam, even a stock replacement cam (like a stock 440 cam) would add that 75 hp you are looking for without any hassles or concerns over stock components. New cam and lifters (stock replacements are very inexpensive, the 440 cam over the 361 is about .415 for 361, about .442 for 440, which is a good breather, not radical at all, like the RV cam addition to a stock engine. Port match the intake manifold to improve the flow and get rid of a dead spot off idle and you will be good to go, nothing fancy at all. Do a double roller chain and high volume oil pump (it's external, takes longer bolts over stock, easy to do at any time), and you would have a very strong and dependable engine that will get good gas mileage, but still have to figure out what that rear ratio is going to be with the 700R4 tranny.
 
4bbl on a 361 stock, yep, on a 64 Custom 880 convertible, wish I would have had a place to put it at the time, found it about 15years ago for $2000 (I haul), but I had just gotten the Charger and even though it was the wife that found it and had me look at it, I kind of kicked myself after the fact, a vert would have been cool, even if it did have rusted lower rocker panels, it appeared complete (just dead for quite a few years based on the dust on it).
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on February 17, 2010, 03:47:14 PM
OK. Sounds good. As I said, I am much more familiar with some other makes...
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on February 17, 2010, 03:48:55 PM
O and since the 700R4 has such a steep first gear, I was thinking a rear end in the 3.08 to 3.23 range will be more than enough, although I may even go with 2.73...
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Leaburn Patey on February 17, 2010, 04:08:42 PM
The 2.73 er 2.76 gears will be a dog with OD.
Ask Steve.for example.
He experimented with 3.23 / 3.55  and different tire sizes so the OD wont bog out the motor.
He had 2.76 gears in the Polaraco and it was giving the Maggie's computer fits.
At highway speeds,his motor was lugging at a lower than normal RPM the pooter was used to running.
The 3.23 put her up at a more normal RPM range and much nicer to drive on the I-80.
 
Think about it..How long/far you drive in first gear?? So it may be steep,but the trans will shift quickly up to the next gear.
A Docker installed a gear vendors overdrive unit and ended up swapping in 3.55's
 
 
CBarge2010-02-17 21:12:09
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Jon Doersch on February 17, 2010, 04:18:46 PM
You are right, but part of it has to do with how much power the engine ends up making as well...Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that the motor in Steve's project was a 318 Magnum motor...With the small displacement and less torque, I can imagine the headaches on the highway...If I end up with the power and torque that I want I could probably get away with less gear...Thats how new Corvettes end up without gas guzzler tax. Still with the weight of the car I was thinking a little more gear would be good to get things moving....
Title: late model drivetrain swap
Post by: Guests on February 17, 2010, 06:08:25 PM
Steve's engine was built with a cam to give it stump-pulling torque where it is needed. This is the reason for keeping with what would be considered an RV cam for the 361, the 440 cam (stock), which is more lift and only about ten degrees more duration, and for a hydraulic flat tappet, it still falls in the 258degrees of duration, which is pretty small on the duration and the .442ish lift is still small, it is a basic bottom end cam and will handle 3.23s and .74 overdrive, which would give you a 2.39 final gear ratio, the little extra added power would make up for the weight.
Here is a link to PAW, a parts warehouse I use, they have stock ground cams along with a bunch of other ones, no specs because they are 50 state factory cams, but a call or email would give you that info.
http://www.pawengineparts.com/PDF_Files/PAW_Catalog/Cams-Valve%20Train.pdf (http://www.pawengineparts.com/PDF_Files/PAW_Catalog/Cams-Valve%20Train.pdf)
 
Like Steve's 5.2, he has the advantage of a roller cam, which allows good lift and short durations, flat tappets have limitations, so short durations where you need the torque (250-260max duration) can only have a lift around .450-.460 because the lobe becomes such a point and the lifters wear them out quickly, rollers just go over the point no problem. So when we built his design, he was able to get the .457 lift on that 250degree duration safely, which builds torque because it builds compression instead of bleeding it off to allow higher rpm from overpressuring and limiting top end power.