MoparFins

Techical Discussions => Tech- - Engine => Topic started by: Steve on December 21, 2009, 01:18:20 PM

Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on December 21, 2009, 01:18:20 PM
Gentlemen. . .I moved these posts to the appropriate place and got the other thread back on track.
 
This is about making inexpensive improvements to a small block Mopar, 318, 340, 360 to improve street driveability and economy.  It's going to be allot of fun when done.  I'll have to do this to the Maggie in Polaraco bevore I put it in the 68F3
 
Glen  Oh Glen!!!   I need some help here on pistons.
 
You know I am into MPG.  The 5.9 was always a pig.  So I am building a 5.9 for Polaraco.  I just needs a slight ommph on the hills.  The 5.2 is barely adequate  on the steep hills.  But snotty as hell on the flats.
 
Anyway, I am trying to raise the compression ratio in the 5.9 which, I am told, will give me better mileage as well as some head work, which I am doing now.
 
Anyway, I am torn.  I was trying to find a set of flat top pistons for the engine, but they don't exist.  If I go with the below, what will I accomplish?  I need a new set of eyes and ears on this.
 

 
I love the price of the 2nd one. . . .
 
I am also looking into a shorter duration and higher lift cam
 
This is the one in the 5.2 now.
_______________________________________________
 
CARB EO Number: D-225-47
 
 
 
POLARACO2010-02-24 23:38:09
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Ken on December 21, 2009, 05:38:26 PM
My 0.02, go with the first piston, higher compression with the tall compression distance (like you don't know this already) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif)

Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: glen cyr on December 21, 2009, 06:17:05 PM
The ZH405CP30 pistons have 4 valve reliefs so you can "reverse" the pistons while the other ones you cannot as the wrist pin centerline will be at zero. The reverse style pistons have the wrist pins offset .030-.060 so when the notch is facing forward as most people would use this piston,there is an increase on the load on the piston and cyl. wall,but it makes the piston quiet when cold. "Reversing" the piston (notch facing to the back) will decrease the load on the piston and cyl. walls,BUT makes the piston noisier when cold. We used to reverse the pistons on the 340's as this was a racer's trick back then and is said to add 4-5 hp. It was free so to speak. I can't say but i think the piston will be +above the deck just a bit,and each notch is approx 3cc's so it looks like it should be around the 10.0 compession ratio,although i don't know the exact specs of the headgaskets and a few other aspects of it. For that price for coated skirts on a hyper piston,they are a real good deal. I tried finding the weight of them to no avail as the originals were about 470-480 grams,so you may not have to rebalance if they are close.
 
Glen
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on December 21, 2009, 07:29:57 PM
Quote from: Moesy
My 0.02, go with the first piston, higher compression with the tall compression distance (like you don't know this already) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif)
 
I went with the second ones Moe.  They would make the ratio 9.9.  The first ones are 9.4.
 
I can still run regular gas with the EFI and not have any knock
 
 
Glen
Thanks for responding so quickly.  I went with #2.  Using trimetal bearings with the Tin Coating on the rods and the Federal Mogul MA series with the Silicone on the mains.
 
Started to mess with the heads, but I need a better tool, ordered.  I'll be able to do a better job with a bigger bit.
 
I heard they are noisey as anything in backwards, but it makes sense to do that.  It only lasts a minute or so.  I may just do it.  I wasn't looking for the daul relief, but now I know why it's in the piston.  You're right though, that price has to be a mistake.  They are the same construction piston as the other with double relief and a slightly higher ratio.  Go figure.  I couldn't buy stock pistons for that price.  They were 19.00!
 
Pistons, moly rings, Federal MA series mains and clevite rod trimetal, cost me $278.00.  Hello a deal.  Now I am wondering if I should shave .005 off the heads or not.  I'll be adding a CC or so to the chamber when I am done.  But if I keep the ratio under 10, I should have no worries with the junk they call Gasoline.
 
This still needs allot more work.  I need a bigger diameter and longer  tool.  On it's way
 
REMEMBER SPORTS FANS, TRY TO TAKE EQUAL AMOUNTS OUT OF EACH CYLINDER.  That way the cylinders will stay balanced
 
POLARACO2011-01-23 12:35:14
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Herman on December 22, 2009, 02:55:33 AM

Quote from: POLARACO

Anyway, I am trying to raise the compression ratio in the 5.9 which, I am told, will give me better mileage as well as some head work, which I am doing now.

I just singled out this line just answer something. I didn't really look at the rest;

More compression gives more torque.
If you make sure that the 'more torque'-number happens in the RPM-range you use most (down low, under 2k), the motor will get more MPG because it runs more efficient in that range.

"Most torque", means the motor runs most efficient at these rpms.


Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stan Paralikis on December 22, 2009, 04:24:58 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
Gentlemen. . .
 
(http://www.dnamotoring.com/ap1ap2/images/intakefan/INTAKE_FAN2.jpg)
 
 
Seriously, Check these out:
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=72275 (http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=72275)
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
 
Commando12009-12-22 09:30:17
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on December 22, 2009, 06:22:51 AM
Those are the ones I bought Stan.  They are higher compression, double relief and Hyperutechnic  (How ever you spell it)  for $17.00????   When it's next closest is single relief, lower compression for 40 bucks each.
 
It's a typo I tell ya.  I took advantage of it.  Set of 8 pistons for $133.00?
 
So how does that blower work on the Bro
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stan Paralikis on December 22, 2009, 10:45:05 AM
Ya STOLE'em!!!!
In fact, I'll betcha they were made from a '74 Newport.....
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: firedome on December 22, 2009, 02:28:21 PM
I betcha for that price they were OUT of a '74 Newport!!





Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on December 22, 2009, 02:30:54 PM
Then someone is pretty sharp with photoshop
 
(http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/stl-h405cp30_w.jpg)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Herman on December 23, 2009, 01:30:47 PM

Quote from: POLARACO
Probably a generic (Chevy) size which happens to correspond with a 360ci size?
Chevy guys are obviously too thick to know the difference between the front or back of their puny engines, so the pistonmakers decided to prevent constant failures they would make the quad valve relieves. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)

Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on December 23, 2009, 03:33:30 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
I thought those arrows were for the Indians.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on December 28, 2009, 03:56:44 AM
Just a little update
 
I am slowly working on this when I have a few minutes.  Here is the progress on #2 and 4 so far.  That's what it's supposed to look like.  The red marks indicates where it needs a tad more work and I meed to round out above the valve stem and get rid of that dip.
 
Still don't have the proper tool needed to reach down in the chamber all the way.
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/d/headgrind2-4.jpg)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/d/headgrind2-4a.jpg)
 
 
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: glen cyr on December 28, 2009, 07:10:47 AM
The pushrod boss is one of the only area's that really sucks on these heads!. My Eddys were opened up quite a bit in this area and did not go through (although aluminum is much easier to weld if you do). The stock heads have lots of metal here so you can remove quite a bit here. You could throw in a simmilar sized tube in the pusrod hole and eyeball it or you could scribe a line after giving it a shot of paint to guide you. The area across from there can be rounded out also,but you have to leave enough of the metal between ports so the gasket can still seal. I don't know why the factory never moved the rocker (exhaust) simmilar to the 1970 T/A head to get rid of this obstruction? Even with a bit of a cleanup in this area,the heads will still flow great.
 
Glen
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on January 01, 2010, 04:27:00 PM
Here ya go.  These are completed cylinders and ports except for the spots indicated in red.  I need a longer tool to finish them.  Thye just need to be blended down some so they are smooth.
 
Look at the pictures above and see the difference fromt he stock heads
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/headgrind2+4+6a.jpg)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/headgrind2+4+6b.jpg)
Exhaust Ports are partially polished
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/headgrind2+4+6c.jpg)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stan Paralikis on January 02, 2010, 02:25:33 AM
Looks good.  Truthfully? My A.D.D.  wouldn't allow me to have the patience to sit over those things doing that kind of stuff.  Good job.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on January 02, 2010, 05:07:11 PM
Stan
 
Once you know how to do it, it's a couple of hours per head.  It took me a week to complete this as I was being tudored on line by a guy who knows how.  I'll attach the link at the bottom so you can entertain yourseld on the REAL POLARACO!  When I'm down to business.
 
This type of porting is for low end torque and economy.  If I polished the intake ports completely, it would be a high RPM motor.  But this is for a 600 to 3000 RPM range.
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/d/finisheven1.jpg)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/d/finisheven2.jpg)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/d/finisheven3.jpg)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/d/finisheven4.jpg)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/d/finisheven5.jpg)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/d/finisheven6.jpg)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/d/finisheven7.jpg)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/d/finisheven8.jpg)
 
http://www.allpar.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=120339&st=100&gopid=1110888&#entry1110888 (http://www.allpar.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=120339&st=100&gopid=1110888&#entry1110888)
 
POLARACO2010-01-02 22:09:37
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 06, 2010, 05:52:09 PM
Ok  Boys. . .Here is some lessons I learned.
 
If you are using Hyperutectic pistons, you need to bevel the bottom of the bores in the block.  This prevents the sharp edges from scraping off the coating on the pistons.
 
If you are going to a shorter duration higher lift cam, like I did, .459 (I) .471 (E) Lift @ 1.5 Ratio, 192* (I) 204* (E) Duration, You need to change the valve springs to dual spring.
 
The use of Cleavite (Trimetal) for a street engine is the best way to go.
 
When porting the heads, like I did, you polish the exhaust ports and leave the intakes rough.  Eliminate all the sharp edges in the ports.
 
Bevel the intake side out to the head gasket.  I'll take a couple of pics tomorrow to show you how.  You need to do the same on the exhaust ports.
 
Make sure the oil holes on the crank are beveled on the bearing surface.  This allows the oil to flow better on the bearings and keep them floating.
 
Chrome Moly rings are a great upgrade.  Especially one that has been just machined.
 

Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Herman on February 07, 2010, 12:08:55 AM
Quote
Ok  Boys. . .Here is some lessons I learned.



If you are using Hyperutectic pistons, you need to bevel the
bottom of the bores in the block.  This prevents the sharp edges from
scraping off the coating on the pistons.

Cylinderbores are always beveled. This helps the piston-rings enter the bores more easily when installing them. Without the bevel they might hang and break during assembly.

Quote
If you are going to a shorter duration higher lift cam, like I
did, .459 (I) .471 (E) Lift @ 1.5 Ratio, 192* (I) 204* (E) Duration,
You need to change the valve springs to dual spring.

Different types of cams require different types (strenghts) of valvesprings.



Quote
The use of Cleavite (Trimetal) for a street engine is the best way to go.

You mean 'stock' ;)

 
Quote
When porting the heads, like I did, you polish the exhaust ports
and leave the intakes rough.  Eliminate all the sharp edges in the
ports.

Well, you got the 'roughness' covered very well I see.
At first glance I thought you had just sandblasted a couple of very rusted cylinder heads.
Now get out the sandpaper grinding wheel and make the cylinder headchambers smooth and shiny.
BigBlockMopar2010-02-07 05:09:27
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 07, 2010, 06:58:18 AM
Nooooooo
 
This is not a race motor.  The cylinders are left like that for better turbulance at lower RPM.
 
You are missing what this is being built for.  The RPM range is idle to 3000.  The target is torque, not HP.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 07, 2010, 07:05:18 AM
Quote from: BigBlockMopar
Quote
Ok  Boys. . .Here is some lessons I learned.
Cylinderbores are always beveled. This helps the piston-rings enter the bores more easily when installing them. Without the bevel they might hang and break during assembly.
 
Yes.  The idea was to make them think and research the springs.  They will need Caps too when changing the springs in many cases.
 
You mean 'stock' ;)
 

 

If I said any more, they wouldn't read the whole thing.
 
Your points are valid.  It's all food for thought
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 09, 2010, 08:38:26 PM
I bet I know all about the port surface remaining the way it is with the carbide burr cutter texure to relieve surface tension and prevent fuel from sticking to the surface, the way polished surfaces allow fuel to stick to smooth surfaces at low rpm. Yeah, took the plunge and joined.(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif)

Ed
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 10, 2010, 05:29:03 AM
Wow Ed!  Glad to have you!
 
[color=#ffff00 size=7]WELCOME[/color]
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 10, 2010, 05:29:47 AM
Guys

This is the guy who tought me how to port my heads!
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stan Paralikis on February 10, 2010, 06:52:07 AM
If he could teach even you, then he's AOK in my book.(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
 


Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 10, 2010, 07:03:15 AM
Thanks guys, glad to be here. Been porting heads (no Japanese please, exception being pre 1969), for 30+ years, and all those articles out there miss the important stuff. They can get flow numbers out, but they don't consider the flame travel itself. When I read thing like, "Lift greater than .500 is not any good because flow interference between the head and the valve is too great", I know there is a porting problem, not a cam problem. Dyno curves after the fact tell another story, jumps and dips are poor porting jobs in my book.  My mentor taught me well, and if I can teach Polaraco, I can teach anyone, or do them for you, no pressure. I'm retired Navy (26 years) and money isn't my motivator (imagine that).
dana442010-02-10 12:04:16
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 10, 2010, 08:26:13 AM
Damned Swabbies.  Just as bad as Damned Kids
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 10, 2010, 01:34:07 PM
Yeah, I agree. Then again, when the nearest land is three days away, something breaks and something needed fixed, the Chief Engineer would come to me with his best mechanic and machinist and ask how to get it fixed. Kind of like that Apollo 13 scene where a guy dumps a dozen things on a table and said, "this is what we have to work with, make it work."
 
Yeah, damn kids...
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 10, 2010, 01:37:20 PM
I coined that phrase. . .   We have a few around here.  But then again, anyone younger than me is still considered a Kid.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 11, 2010, 09:06:40 AM
BTW Ed
 
My magnum deck is about .03 out.  I'm leaving it.  Goint to try to measure the CC of the cylinders and them going to measure the intakes with the same fluid measuring.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 11, 2010, 09:42:59 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
BTW Ed
 

I'm hoping that's supposed to be .003, as in three thousandths? That, believe it or not, is well within stock tolerance.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 11, 2010, 04:35:13 PM
Quote from: dana44
Quote from: POLARACO
BTW Ed
 

I'm hoping that's supposed to be .003, as in three thousandths? That, believe it or not, is well within stock tolerance.

Yeah



I've been having allot of brain gas lately.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 11, 2010, 04:41:15 PM
well, here's the crank installed. . . .  I finally got the missing ring so I can start filling jugs.  (My ring set was missing one oil ring)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/d/crank.jpg)
 
If Ed explained it right, this is what you are supposed to do to the edge of the valves.  You are supposed to take the sharp edges off with a file and/or emery cloth
 

(http://www.moparfins.com/d/croundvalve.jpg)
 
Which one is done?  LOL   The top one has the polished edges.  (I think)
 

(http://www.moparfins.com/d/valveedge.jpg)
 
And for the Finale
 


Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 11, 2010, 04:50:45 PM
Looks good so far, keep it up.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 11, 2010, 05:02:28 PM
You saw the markings around the one cylinder. . .The sealing ring is right on the edge.  It's the same on the other head too
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 11, 2010, 07:01:31 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/cMarkIntake.gif)

Lea

When Ed mentioned about shaping the intake to the gasket, he meant to take a intake gasket and mark the head so you can bevel the intake to meet the gasket.  This eliminates restrictions.

See the marks at the bottoms of the ports.

ALSO!
Look at the picture of the finished head.  You are to mark your head with a gasket to be sure you don't go past the sealing ring.


Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 13, 2010, 05:08:02 PM
Incredible
 
You guys have heard me talk about TJ, my buddy.  TJ could talk Bob under the table. . . .
 
Anyway, he came over to help me set the pistons.  He has a better ring compressor and my 3/8 torque wrench is busted, so he brought his.
 
Make a long story short, He started on Jug #8 and drove the rod right into the crank.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)  Now I have to have the crank reground on the rod journals.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley11.gif)  The rods were .010 so we'll have to go an additional 10.
 
There is a silver lining.
 
I took the main caps off and pulled the crank.  I checked the bearings to make sure they were OK before putting them back in place.  On #4 Cap, I noticed what looked like a gouge in teh bearing.  Turns out the bearing had a radial crack in it about 1/2 and inch long.  So I carefully removed the bearing from the cap to see if something was trapped under it.  Then I realized there was no scuffing on that spot from the crank.  Nothing under it.  Called Summit, new ones are on the way and they are taking to rod bearings back in trade as well.  They even paid for the return.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
 
I'm glad it all happened now.  That could have been a disaster if I hadn't looked.
 
POLARACO2010-02-13 22:08:49
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 13, 2010, 06:16:59 PM
No kidding.
 
And on top of it all, all the porting and recommendations I gave would have been blamed first and foremost, I put money on it!(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif)
 
Don't feel bad, I had a TRW cam for a Caddy 390, put it in and it was a little tight, took a little tapping to get it in, so tried to turn it, without any luck, so forcefully pulled it back out, along with the cam bearings, took the cam down to my mentor's place, stuck it in the lathe, put a dial indicator on it, .005 out of round on the three center journals, so yeah, it happens, just glad you caught it early, I have a 361 out of my Charger sitting alongside the garage  (seasoning it, that's it, seasoning it some more, yeah, that's the ticket), rod knocking. I thought it was a knick on a journal that I scraped a journal when assembing her, then polished it up and replaced the bearings, thought it was good. For some strange reason, after the rod started knocking around 38miles from Bakersfield on the I5, I limped it to town, had a storage place allow me to leave it there a couple days, and when I tore her apart, turned out I had like ten lobes scraped on the Crower cam (solid of course). Crower replaced it in a heartbeat, but still, one never knows what is going to be wrong after assembly.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 13, 2010, 07:11:10 PM
It happens
 
I ordered more plastiguage so I'll check them again.  Over and over.  LOL
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 19, 2010, 02:02:30 PM
Hey Ed!

I'm CCing the cylinders and glad I did  I'm between 63.2 and 65 CC right now on one head.

Question. 

How close should I get these?

Lea. . .you may have to wait a few more days for the tools.


Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 19, 2010, 02:38:54 PM
Since everything is going to be low rpm, get them within a CC wil be more than close enough, it's just a little bit of touching up in the smaller ones a little bit. That takes them within about five psi of each other, which is well within the ten percent compression number of each other.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: firedome on February 19, 2010, 03:00:59 PM
Are you doing a 3 angle grind on the valves?, if you're going to all that effort you might as well...

Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 19, 2010, 04:27:20 PM
Quote from: firedome
Are you doing a 3 angle grind on the valves?, if you're going to all that effort you might as well...

Done already
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 19, 2010, 04:33:06 PM
Quote from: dana44
Since everything is going to be low rpm, get them within a CC wil be more than close enough, it's just a little bit of touching up in the smaller ones a little bit. That takes them within about five psi of each other, which is well within the ten percent compression number of each other.

I'm going to target .4 and take her from there.  That will put it within 3% or 1.5 (Approx) 
 
I didn't get the internal hardware balanced, but the piston assemblies are within 2 grams of each other and the crank shop did true the crank the first time, they said it was out about .2* when they were done.  But now that I had to have the rods reground, they got the rods dead nuts on.  So the final talley is about 1.5* which is way better than the +/- 5 degrees of stock grinds.
 
POLARACO2010-02-19 21:42:36
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Leaburn Patey on February 19, 2010, 05:23:04 PM
The B&M flexplate for 360's is a solid investment.
James who has built a pile of 360's swear by them.
Great for convertor swaps eliminating  the need to weld weights onto them and re-use factory harmonic balancers on the cheap.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 19, 2010, 05:55:46 PM
I've heard of B & M. . .  I have to make sure they have one for the magnum
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 19, 2010, 06:55:08 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
I've heard of B & M. . .  I have to make sure they have one for the magnum

B & M does not have a flex plate for a 518 trans.  They only have dual bolt pattern standard flex plates for the 727, non-EFI engines.  I have to use a standard 5.9 converter.
 
I'm just going to weld the weights on the converter Lea.  For $23.00 vs. $189.00 it's worth it.  I have to buy a 5.9 flex plate anyway.  Apparently the 5.2 is different.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: glen cyr on February 19, 2010, 07:24:28 PM
Steve,..check out the flexplates near the bottom of this page and also the lock-up switch conversion. Very interesting. http://www.transmissioncenter.net/727transmission.htm (http://www.transmissioncenter.net/727transmission.htm)

Glen
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 20, 2010, 06:04:00 AM
SOS Glen. . .I already have a flex plate for it.  The crank sensor is in the back of the motor and reads the flex plate with a hall effect sensor.
 
I'm using the factory EFI system to control the trans
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 20, 2010, 09:11:54 AM
The question I have is, did the 5.2 become external balance when they went to the Magnum design, or did she stay internal balance like the 318/340? This would depend as to whether or not the counterweight is needed or not. I did some converter checking but I can't tell for sure whether the couterweight is needed or whether the flex plate takes care of the balance after looking at a good dozen different companies. Got me on this one.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 20, 2010, 12:07:53 PM
Like the LA's, the 360 and the 5.9 are externally balanced.  The smaller displacements must have a steel crank.  Makes no sense to me, but that's how it is.
 
The Flex Plate is different too.  Not sure where the difference is until I get the two motors side by side.  If I ever get this damned thing together. . . .  It will be the end of Msrch for the swap.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 20, 2010, 04:17:04 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
Like the LA's, the 360 and the 5.9 are externally balanced.  The smaller displacements must have a steel crank.  Makes no sense to me, but that's how it is.
 
OK, then it remains the same, but the question then becomes, is it the bolt pattern at the flex plate to torque converter that is different (two patterns, large and small, small for an 11 inch torque converter, large for 12 inch torque converter), neither of which are balanced but don't interchange, can be on either size engine, balance is on the converter, and of course you now have a 5.9 in the place of a 5.2, you have the harmonic balancer but not the counterweight for the torque converter, got it. And since the tranny is fine, the least expensive way is to follow the directions as to where to put the counterbalance and weld it onto the original 5.2 tranny, got it, has to cost less than a different couterbalanced (B&M takes a big chunk out of the flex plate to make it work) flex plate.(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 20, 2010, 05:19:44 PM
Yeah. . .For 20 bucks they give you the weights and a template to add weights to the converter.  That's the route I am taking.  You can't put a balanced converter on a 5.2, but the 10" bolt pattern should be the same.
 
I just don't know the difference in the flex plate.  Both are 6 bolt.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 20, 2010, 06:44:57 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/Valvepolish.jpg)

We know that carbon likes to stick to anything it can get it's little grips on.  I decided, since I was rounding the edges anyway, to polish the back of the valves.  I did this with some 80 Grit emery, followed by some 320 emery.  It's not perfect, but a heck of allot smoother than it was.  I did the faces too, you can see them in a couple of pics back.   As you can see, untouched valve is on the left.  It seems to me the stainless valves come this way already.

With all the detergents in the gasolines today, carbon build up is supposed to be reduced.  I know I had an oil leak on the intake on Polaraco last year and lifted the intake.  The Hughes intake turns the injectors more towards the valve.  The intake valves were really very clean.   For the hell of it, I did the exhaust valves too.

ED!  This is allot of freakin work!  It better pay off!!! Or I'm gonna' (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)


Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 20, 2010, 06:46:15 PM
OK  so how can you do this?

Fix an electric drill in a vice or use a drill press.  I used a drill press.


Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stitcherbob on February 20, 2010, 07:08:40 PM
or fish a vintage Snap-on valve grinding machine from the dumpster of a local Volkswagen dealership....

Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 20, 2010, 07:17:06 PM
That doesn't do the faces of the valves, only the seats.  Good luck getting parts for that
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: glen cyr on February 20, 2010, 08:11:20 PM
[/QUOTE]  
 
OR....if low budget tools are your forte'........a little duct tape...... (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/26/imagesCAKXDBUU.jpg)
 
Glen
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 20, 2010, 08:20:24 PM
PRETTYYYYYYYYYY.

I never said it was easy, just that it was effective in the improvement of flow, thus power, thus efficiency.
You have a problem with these plusses?
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 21, 2010, 05:58:12 AM
Quote from: dana44
PRETTYYYYYYYYYY.

I never said it was easy, just that it was effective in the improvement of flow, thus power, thus efficiency.
You have a problem with these plusses?

(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
No. . .I just needed an butt to kick last night. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
I'm enjoying it. . .   I know what the rewards will be.  I have been getting some flack about the roughness in the cylinder heads
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 21, 2010, 08:21:29 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
Quote from: dana44
PRETTYYYYYYYYYY.

I never said it was easy, just that it was effective in the improvement of flow, thus power, thus efficiency.
You have a problem with these plusses?

(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
No. . .I just needed an butt to kick last night. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 

Bottom line, you can pull a set of ported heads that have been polished and look at them after 1000miles or 100,000miles and you will see polished clean spots, washed areas, black carbon and oil smeared spots. Running down a racetrack only, with full throttle for 6-12seconds is one thing, they will work just great, but on the street, idling, slow rpm cruising, rpm below 5000 for years are going to be dirty. Now take those same heads with the roughness of the carbide burr cutter and do the exact same thing to them and they will be ninety percent clean, no oil and carbon smeared in spots, no washed areas, and a set of heads with 100,000miles on them will be the same cleanliness as a set with 1000miles on them. Literally, the heads on my 361 out of the Charger were ported at 125,000miles, bronze guides installed, original valves ground and original seats left in (don't need no stinking hardened seats). That was back in 1981, third or fourth set of heads I had ported at that time. I drove the car until 1991, put a nice 100,000miles on her, and the sparkplugs were fouling a couple out, figured cheap bronze guides or rings. Well it was neither, it was the valve stem umbrellas. So, in 1999, out comes the engine, pull the heads, chambers are clean, can't tell which cylinders are having oil problems, ports are clean, no carbon build-up, no oil, slight carbon powder in the cylinders, and since I couldn't do the valve job myself thinking I needed guides, I took them to a recommended head shop. I hadn't cleaned them, figured they would be dipped, checked (225,000miles by now), shave them to clean them up, guides and grind the valves. He said he would call in two days to give me an estimate, which he did, first saying the guides are fine but someone really screwed up these heads. I asked him what he meant, he said with the few miles on the heads, and the condition of the guides, the valves had been overground on two of them and needed replaced. I asked him how many miles he thought were on the heads, he said between 2000 and 6000miles, which is why he said they were put together poorly. I told him the original valves had been ground twice, that here was 100,000miles on the last regrind, 225,000miles total, to which he said was almost impossible, there only needed to be .002 to make these heads square and he cleaned them with a parts brush, no dipping or blasting needed.



The key is the way the carbide burr cutters make these tiny little rice-sized little cups in the surface. They may only be .0005 -.001 deep, but they keep the fuel and air from sticking to the sides and surface of the ports. Because the fuel and air gets near these little pockets they curl towards the flow, not collect more that passes (kind of like the prevention of plaque in arteries(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)), whereas polished surfaces have grooves on the surface, similar to driving on a road with lots of nice smooth seams, you still feel them and junk catches in them (like fuel, which then evaporates the elements out of it, leaving a residue, and oil, etc), which once you get up to high speed rpms skips over the top of them through velocity, but not at slow speeds. Carbide burr cutter surface is like the circus game of tossing the pingpong ball into the bowl, it takes a ton of practice and a certain angle to get it to stay, and if it is a bunch of lines you can toss that same pingpong ball all day long and it will stop much easier, higher speed tossing will have them skip off. Here is a nice selection of burr cutters, I personally like using the one about the size of the end of my index finger for most of the work to get good curves, and one pointed the size of a ballpoint pen to catch the little ridges around valve seats and the likes. There are wide cut ones for aluminum, small cut for steel, and they are very durable, but I did have a set of Cadillac 4.9 heads that really wore one of my bits out, very hard to say the least. At the bottom of the page, SC-5 and SF-5 are the ones I like. 
http://www.carbtools.com/ (http://www.carbtools.com/)
dana442010-02-21 13:27:04
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 21, 2010, 10:46:38 AM
OK. . .Let's talk about rocker arms.
 
I was thinking of these.
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/products.php?browse=category&level0=U21hbGwgQmxvY2sgTWFnbnVtICgzLjkvNS4yLzUuOSk=&level1=Um9ja2VyIEFybXMgJiBBY2Nlc3Nvcmllcw==&partid=25405 (http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/products.php?browse=category&level0=U21hbGwgQmxvY2sgTWFnbnVtICgzLjkvNS4yLzUuOSk=&level1=Um9ja2VyIEFybXMgJiBBY2Nlc3Nvcmllcw==&partid=25405)
 
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 21, 2010, 02:06:55 PM
I love adjustable rockers for proper adjustment, whether you need them or not. Set them at zero lash for the best accuracy, just touching and not that extra 3/4 turn, just extra pressure for no reason.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 21, 2010, 04:55:30 PM

(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/oilpumpmagnum.jpg)Ok Hansome

We're up to the oil pump.

What do you want done in here besides taking the sharp edges off?  I see the pick up tube area could be opened up a bit

POLARACO2010-02-21 21:55:53
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: glen cyr on February 21, 2010, 06:23:50 PM
I know the Hughes rocker system is good as it's simmilar to the system i am using, only i'm running 1.7" rockers,but i question this expence on a fairly stock build for only about 10-15 hp. The stock magnum valvetrain is actually very good and i would throw that $350 at a windage tray and attachment bolts for a lot less ($89 providing you do not have the truck oil pan as this may not fit) and also the alt underdrive pulley for the alt. and crank from hughes ($47). So for about $150 you have 2 items that may be worth at least 15-25hp .

Glen
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 21, 2010, 06:40:33 PM
Already have the windage tray,
 
What is an Alt underdrive Pully?  Are you talking about the alternator?
 
I have been in between on the rockers.   I thought I would throw it out there and see what you guys thought.  However, if I had the money, I would use them for the friction, accurace, wear factors and over all performance.  I have allot of torque coming, any additional HP would be appreciated.  It's certainly not the cost of stroking it.
 
Lowering the pounds per HP is a good thing.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: glen cyr on February 21, 2010, 07:11:33 PM
Hughes #1880, 25% underdrive alt and crank pulley. The power that the 130 amp alts puts out at idle is still more than enough as these cut down on drag and is easier on the waterpump,p/s pump and even prolongs belt life. http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/products.php?browse=category&level0=U21hbGwgQmxvY2sgTWFnbnVtICgzLjkvNS4yLzUuOSk=&level1=UHVsbGV5cw==&partid=25542 (http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/products.php?browse=category&level0=U21hbGwgQmxvY2sgTWFnbnVtICgzLjkvNS4yLzUuOSk=&level1=UHVsbGV5cw==&partid=25542)





I agree, the roller rockers are a very nice upgrade.    Glen
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 21, 2010, 07:35:43 PM
Ahh
 
The problem with that is I have a low voltage situation at idle.  But I'm thinking it has to do with those Gell Cells.
 
That's a good idea Glen!  Thanks!!!  That will probably free up 10 HP that way
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 21, 2010, 08:33:18 PM
[/QUOTE]
Lots. Get all that rough slag out of the flow passages. The pump is right side pickup suction side, left side pressure side. Starting at the right side where the pickup tube comes in, open that area up, where the lumps are, see how far the pickup tube goes into the housing and make sure the rest of the housing doesn't come past the end to slow flow. The sand casting surface in there is like flowing through a culvert, need to make it so it is like flowing in a plastic pipe, nice and smooth, and widening it a little isn't going to be bad, the sharp edge sits against the pump vanes so leave them, don't round them, use the outer ring of the pump guts to make sure the center piece is the outside edge of your side removal (make sense?).  Left side, see that small hole at the bottom? This is a tricky one. Rotation is clockwise for the rotor, you are looking at the bottom of the pump, so if you look at it upside down it would be turning counterclockwise and  the oil is coming in from the top left casting mark and then into the hole. You want to again get rid of the texture, but also remove part of the 90 degree downward lump located top left so this waterfall isn't so steep (make it more of a slide than a waterfall), it will slow down and reduce/eliminate cavitation and flow smoother, smoother flow means less friction, less friction is added hp/tq because it doesn't take as much to push the oil through. Back to the feed hole, bottom left, taper that hole from the slide into the hole (leave the little waterfall at the bottom left alone, but the wall above the hole can be pocketed just a little bit right above the hole on that wall (makes the oil have a pool to run into before getting pushed into the bearings, a little pocket above the oil hole on the far wall stops it and makes is curl towards the hole but still allows enough to continue to lubricate the pump parts (kind of like a silt fence....looks good, doesn't do much of anything). From there, look at the top and at the rear main it attaches to and make sure there is extra area for oil to be in standby reserve, meaning this side also has that nasty sand casting area, smooth it out and if it opens up a little bit but still smaller than the gasket passage, it's still porting, right? The oil volume is controlled at the rear main, the pump will flow as much as the engine is capable of taking without forcing it this way.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 22, 2010, 05:03:33 PM
That's what I figured when I looked at the channels. 
 
I need to get a couple of small stones for the dremel for the channels.  I don't want to use a burr in there as it will be too aggressive to get the smoothness.
 
So this motor is going to be named Murphy.
 
So far
The ring set was 1 ring short
I am short one valve spring retainer. (Short shipped,  on the way)
I had to exchange the main bearings twice. . .   The first set were the wrong size and the second was defective.
I had to have the crank ground twice.  My Pal drove a rod into a journal and I had to have another 10 taken off the rod journals
I have to wait until March 4 to get my rod bearings. . .
 
Meanwhile, I have crap all over the place and stuff is getting lost.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stitcherbob on February 22, 2010, 10:41:17 PM
yeesh....who does your parts searching, Mr Magoo? Too many screw ups for one job (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif)



Now explain to the nice folk here why you didn't have fuel line hose on those rod bolts when installing the pistons....(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley21.gif)


Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stan Paralikis on February 23, 2010, 05:18:02 AM
Quote from: POLARACO

Here.  Save this as a handy reference to when you have to round up all your parts.  We don't want any parts left over.

 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/32/parts.jpg)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 23, 2010, 06:38:52 AM
Don't feel bad, Thursday I had a city guy come out and tell me I didn't need a soils report to build the garage, then this morning at 7:15 they call to tell me when I was told I didn't need a soils report I misunderstood the words, "No, you have a DG base (decintegrated granite) and not worried about it at all." I used to think this little sleepy town of National City was this way because it was a bedroom community for San Diego, but as it is turning out, it is incompetence and idiots running the place.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 23, 2010, 06:55:00 AM
[/QUOTE]


 
Two Letters
 
TJ
 
You know how he likes to yap.  You and he get along great.  You're both double sided DVD's on repeat.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)   He wasn't paying attention as his gums were flapping a mile a minute, you know what I means.  Grabs #7, stuffs is in the hole and uses my 8 ounce soft face to set it.  It goes 3/4 in, and stops.  Instead of looking, he get's a bigger hammer (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif)
 
100 bucks later
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 24, 2010, 11:56:30 AM
Thank You Hughes!
 
POLARACO2010-03-01 16:36:39
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 24, 2010, 12:03:01 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/CamSpec.jpg)


Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 24, 2010, 03:48:33 PM
Heh
 
Seems I messed up on the head gasket thickness.  I fat fingered it.
 
The charts changed slightly
 
418 # Torque at 2500 RPM. . . that's 78 more than stock (330)
243 HP at 3500, that's 13 more than stock at 3500
and the final compression ratio ends up at 9.66:1
 
That does not take in account the heads being ported.  I don't have that information.
POLARACO2010-02-24 20:49:04
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 24, 2010, 09:27:15 PM
I sent you a personal on it as asked, and as you noted, you don't have the proper flow numbers. Ported against stock comparisons all day long are great, a PT Cruiser all stock except for the ported head that goes through the Siskiyous mountains (California to mid Oregon), and Grapevine in fifth without a problem (as long as I am at 70mph or greater), and was a full fourth gear run the first time until I ported the head. I came around an onramp in third, it was busy, I merged at 65mph in third, forgot I was in third, was so smooth and quiet I didn't know I was at redline for about eight seconds merging (oops).
The combustion chamber reshaping alone is an improvement that will stretch that curve on both ends, and increase it on both ends.
As I noted in my pm to you, one big case I actually had a dyno sheet on, was a Cadillac 4.9 V8, MPFI TB type manifold, stock bottom end, and such a rare engine for mods that I ported the heads and intake just like I told you to do yours, was able to add .017 lift on the cam. We punched desktop dynos for weeks to get big numbers, and going from stock 200hp/275lb-ft torque at the flywheel, in a Fiero (one of those guys that would tell others, no dyno, no proof), Safari minivan automatic transaxle in front of it. His dyno, remember we thought we were doing good to get 300/300 with different profiles of cams and compressions, but I couldn't do anything with the head flow numbers, just valve sizes, which didn't do much at all. He dropped a dyno sheet with 349.7lb-ft torque on my desk. He said they did three pulls and it would get to 4800rpm and start missing. After the third time, it donned on the two of them that Fieros have a 112mph speed limiter in the computer and they couldn't bypass it, so they never got the 5252rpm crossover for hp, but at 2500-4800rpm torque never fell below 300lb-ft. A guy that constantly gave him ideas had been building this engine for three years, said if he hadn't seen the dyno sheet as is, never would have believed it, he hadn't ever accomplished this number, and he did things like billet 5.0 Mustang cam grinds, shaved heads, sheetmetal intakes, headers, all kinds of stuff.  Oh, and a stock 4.9 behind a tranny and at the wheels is 175hp and 225lb-ft. Tack at least 25percent on those numbers, and stretch the lines sideways half again as much.
 
Notice your VE is topping out at 80percent? Yeah, right, that number is closer to 105percent with ported heads of this nature, yours are mild, but still good.
 
dana442010-02-25 02:33:23
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 25, 2010, 12:50:18 PM
OK  so I polished the ports on the oil pump and put it back together.
 
Next will be the throttle body.
 
I'll take some pictures of it and get them up
 
Unfortunately, by black hole garage is eating things.  I can't find the distributor gear now. . .
POLARACO2010-02-25 17:52:56
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 26, 2010, 01:32:42 PM

OK Ed. . .   Let's talk about this throttle Body.  Of coarse this just applies to throttle bodies. . . But you can get some significant flow.  The RED indicates what I am going to shave off the top.  Then I am going to polish the throat smoother like it is further down by the throttle plates.

(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/tb.jpg)

Ed

This is the adapter that goes on top of the intake manifold.  The intake is a single bore and the old adapter is a single bore.  I bought this one as it is an upgrade to the old one.  Hughes tells me it delivers more low end torque.  So.  They have a single bore intake with this dual bore adapter.

You asked about the hood line. . . I am using a K & N filter adapter and moved the air filter outside the core support behind the valance.  Man-o-man, that perked the motor up when it got hot.  I was sucking all kinds of hot air into the intake.

The sand casting was pretty coarse.  I was thinking of polishing the adapter.  Do you think it will do any good?

(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/TBAdaptor.jpg)

As soon as I find Polaraco, I'll take a shot of what it looks like now.  At the moment, there is a 6' snow drift sitting on top of it.  Maybe tomorrow I'll find the car.  Seriously!  It is literly under 6 feet of snow.  The only way I could find my truck was by the CB antenna.  Momma's charger was clean as a whistle except for the nose being burried






POLARACO2010-02-26 18:36:12
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 26, 2010, 02:42:08 PM
OK, let's see what we can work with here, starting with the throttle body.
 
Good one Padawan, remove that restrictive lip, it isn't needed. Let's take it a step farther. That big hole cast into the body above the AIC. Did they do that to simply save metal or are there any vacuum ports in it? In other words, fill it up with epoxy (I use JB Weld myself when doing things like this). Use cap screws to attach the TB to the base plate adapter, gets them lower and out of the flow way.  Right side center, about the middle of the leg of your red arrow, is that an air bleed or air port right in between there? Gotta save that, so just kind of leave it with a 45degree angle on either side, rounded edges of course.
Once all that is done, here is the image to think of. A flat bottomed sink. When the water flows out of it, no matter what amount of suction the water pulls the rest out of the sink, there are still dead spots on that flat surface, allowing the water temp to change, remain stagnant and not move, basically many stall areas. Now, imagine a basin with a slightly curved area downward (about as much as a plate sitting flat). No matter how slow the drain is pulling water into the drain, it always moves to the lower point with no dead spots, so, depending on how big the hat on your air cleaner CAI is, as long as the outside edge is the highest edge (like the plate or basin), and everything as it moves inward is lower, air will always be pulled, won't be stagnant, temperature will remain constant (a plus). Once it gets to the edge of the butterfly tops, then curve it into the venturii. Keep the roundness as much as what the lip (red ridge) has right now, which is enough, not too much work, but still critical. This top depth can be done one of two ways. Lathes are cool, and if you can chuck it up and do a rounded cutting head, use the inside edge of your air hood CAI thingy and use a rounded cutter (simplifies initial curve on the outer edge and from there, the drop to the butterflies only needs to be .080-.100 to the outer front/rear of the venturii, just a tenth of an inch, that's all it takes to prevent stalled air, amazing. The other way is to use epoxy to raise the outer edge to the CAI size and taper down to the venturii and break out the dremel and sand rolls, files, sand paper, and gage the whole thing. Since fuel doesn't ever touch this part these days, let's just say I trust JB Weld for things like this because fuel and oils don't affect it.
 
And continuing..... make sure the venturii are the same top and bottom, that they don't start out smaller than the butterfly, but taper down underneath, or above. I once had a 2.5 carb that was 11/16 throat on top and 13/16 bottom. It still took me over an hour of carbide burr cutting around and around to get it even without going overboard, but a drill press ould have been so much easier. Make sure the throat isn't tapered somewhere. At the base of the TB, again, match the bore of your adapter to the TB, and taper the edges equally to each other. I see this as being one of those "problem areas" I was making note of.
If you look at the top of the adapter there is a small cutout to balance the suction on top, for vacuum and such, very common, no big deal. Then you go down lower and it essentially turns into a broad fork in the road, nice curve both directions (fore and aft), nice, but then look to the sides. Ever see the water come out of a downspout (I know you have snow, but I know you have seen rain, haha)..... There is too large an area, kind of like that scene in Time Bandits where they fall out of the sky and just.....fall. Intakes do better performance when there is control of the flow, not giant areas the size of a softball to go into, then dole out where it wants to go when the suction pulls it, it likes to be able to use the walls of the manifold to direct it through its path (why I like my texture of the carbide burr cutters, it doesn't allow anything to touch the walls (like the fear of entering the atmosphere, it automatically skips off because of the tiny cups they cut). Right now we need to figure out this dead spot (as noted at the Hughes site, "and when you hit 3500rpm the difference between stock and performance take separate roads", which is the point of rpm on a stock cam that the suction and velocity increases to the point to overcome the giant dead spot right underneath the throttle body, that point where if it were smoke filling the room (area under the throttle body), the exhaust fans (pistons sucking past the intake valves and increased vacuum) pull it directly into the airducts and leaves the center clear of smoke (velocity overcomes volume).  We will have to work on this, but for now, let me see the underside of the TB and the adapter itself.
 
And now the fun begins!
 
Ed 
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 26, 2010, 04:05:42 PM
KISS
 
Whadhesay?
 
The TB is straight through.  It's a 50 MM bore.  A 52MM Bore flows at 750, with the tops all polished.  I was planning on using socket head cap screws.  Tall, but much smaller diameter.  Let's face it, anything will be disrupting the flow, but at least the sockets heads are round.  (Pretty clever Huh? (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif))
 
I'll go take the bottoms for you. . .  I gotta tell you, your novel lost me this time. . . .  Break it up a bit or somthing. . . . (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)  Maybe I'm just tired. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif)
I was thinking of tapering down the top edge and rounding, of coarse, of the TB into the throats.
 
Moving on to the adaptor, I was planning on smoothing the inside of the flow chamber.  I know this is much coarser than the intake is itself.  The intake had at least a fine sand casting.  The rest of what you said, I need to get my Pipe and slippers so I can read it again. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 26, 2010, 04:58:59 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/TB2.jpg)

I wanted to smooth out the throat on this (below)

(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/TB3.jpg)

(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/TB4.jpg)

(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/TB5.jpg)





Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 26, 2010, 06:36:36 PM
OK, LMAO, I will break it down into baby steps for you. Thanks for the bottom pictures.
 
Cap bolts, great, you got that one right and for the right reason. I'll do picture by picture.
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/TB2.jpg)
 
Slap your gasket on here and see how much slelf is on each end and along the side. compare it to the manifold also, because this is fun. You want a smooth transition from side of this to side of manifold and the center divider, but you aslo want to have a smooth transition from the ends and same with the sides. You have lots of aluminum, might have some time to improve the transitions thus improve flow and prevent eddies at the mating surfaces. In looking at the inside of the manifold, I am thinking about, will tell you about it tomorrow, want to limit the novels.
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/TBAdaptor.jpg)
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/TB4.jpg)
Is the TB gasket here kind of heart shaped? The part on the top should have a gasket to be across the vacuum pickups on top, then stop at the middle where the butterfly shaft is, right? Then cut out to go around the outside of the AIC on the bottom, no gasket across that open area, right? This way if it is, gives good vacuum signal on the top of the picture connections, and plenty of area for the air idle controller not to be impeded. Can't do anything with it for improvements, just make sure the adapter block underneath matches the venturii botoms as close as possible, kind of like the intake to head ported portions. The pictures next to each other look pretty good, the adapter seems to mimic pretty good, just get rid of the extra gasket where not needed around the AIC cutout, you have metal there already, but the vacuum fitting side needs that gasket as noted above.
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/TB5.jpg)
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/tb.jpg)
 
This is the worst picture so far, pretty good of you (just kidding). OK, this is the AIC or IAC, idle air controller or air idle controller, whatever. Since it is just a tiny air bleed and large computer controlled sensor, reduce the size of this massive hole as much as possible. I have taken these and placed a slurpie straw tube and  JB Welded around them to reduce the turbulence area, pull the straw out when dry and you have a controlled air bleed area for idle and no issues with reduced volume needed. It's a big hole, try to reduce it, lots of turbulence.
 
 So overall the connection between the TB and adapter looks pretty good, simple touchup stuff other than the top of the TB flow.
 
I will wait for the adapter to manifold, that is going to be a fun one. I am thinking, as usual, a regular port matching of the sides, sure, but gotta see that inside of the intake manifold, whether split in half or one big open area.
 
(http://www.hughesengines.com/Upload/Images/NoBarrel4.jpg)
 
You can breathe, not too much work overall.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 26, 2010, 08:21:57 PM
Yeah. . .I'm just going to do the top, polish it and polish the top 1/2 of the bore.  Well maybe.  It's pretty smooth now.  I

'll have to think about that IAC.  The nozzle is close to 3/8" diameter.  I think I am just going to dam it on either side and then fill behind the dam.  Leave about a 1/2" slot to the top. 

I have to wonder why they left so much room though.  Maybe the IAC needs allot of air?  I'm going to look and see what they did with the billet units.

The bottom I'll use a fine grinding wheel and mate it to the gasket, like the heads.

If you look at that bore in the adapter, it's pretty rough.  Keep that in mind.

That is a pretty cool intake.  Ya think?

Leaburn. . .you getting all this?


Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 27, 2010, 12:36:43 PM
OK, however large that AIC valve opening is, make it so there is room for it to breathe without making it whistle when it operates, but yeah, close it down a bit, I think a lot of it is material savings, like underneath.
 
Remember my opinion of sanding stones, which I think of them as chatter garbage collectors, good for outside and looks, not nice for flow characteristics of surfaces. The rough sand casting is just about as bad, think about how things flow across surfaces. Air is simply water, just lighter, so they pretty much act the same way, water being a little slower, but you can see how it affects going over items. Just like a mismatch of ports, it is like water going down a sidewalk and hitting a rise and fall in an otherwise smooth surface, water in a bowl keeps moving, against the outside of a cup flows around, and a flat surface splashes, a curve controls direction better than a simple flat angle. Seams need to fit and all that to reduce a wrinkle in flow across, but as you notice, there then comes a speed of the flow that overcomes and simply jumps a seam or other imperfection (that 3500rpm jump that keeps popping up, stock does the same thing usually), but to get it as equal as possible so you don't have those jumps, means the flow is better. I am thinking a small almost half circle/half cylinder type break at the bottom of the manifold will be best, so let me draw something and try to attach it to give an idea what I am talking about. It can't block flow, it can't cut flow in half, but basically remove the volume of dead flow before the velocity itself picks up is what we want. I'll get something to you sometime today, kind of taking care of the MINI Cooper maintenance check (it's the sixth time I have driven the car since owning it, the dealership is about 35miles away, figured the wife could use some fluid changing since I still don't have my garage to do anything, I refuse to do some things on the road parking area).
Ed
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 27, 2010, 02:42:03 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/TB6.jpg)

OK  You happy now?  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)

I have to start polishing this as soon as I cut off the last of the lip.  I need to keep those blocks on the outer edges for the filter bonnet.  But I am going to reduce them in size.


Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 27, 2010, 05:59:53 PM
[/QUOTE]

(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)Yep, yep, yep, all happy about it so far. Nice rounding of the edges, and OK, better picture angle, and the AIC thing, make it a pentagram as wide as the rounded part at the bottom and straight up the sides of the rounded sensor. Should keep it from making noise or whistling, and on top of it, the sensor is electronically controlled through the rpm, so if it drops, air increases, if it goes too high, it shuts down, also controls the idle increase for AC on mode, so that should be large enough, helps give you more area to round once it is filled in a bit.
 
Been thinking about the shape most appropriate for the splitter in the intake, and I think something like the shape of a cam lobe would be best, kind of an egg pointed top, about an inch and a half tall, about two inches wide at the bottom, then from the half inch from the bottom (measuring bottom to top) should be one inch wide, and from this point, tapered half inch rounded outward to the two inch wide base (kind of looking like a cam lobe profile wave picture). Take one wave from the bottom to the top and back down to the bottom, and if this makes sense, the line cutting this picture in half, take the two bottom outer side line ends and drag themoutward to the floor of the intake. (in essence, below the 3000rpm range, this is what the dead area under the TB and at the base of the intake manifold pretty much looks like with smoke). EDIT: My sine wave picture didn't stick(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif).
(http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspxq=1625176736551&ampid=cd8990ff868f77ce3ab47ea6260585b8&ampurl=http%3a%2f%2fi148.photobucket.com%2falbums%2fs23%2fdarqueknight88%2fsoloist-se%2fSoloistSERtSine-6x4.jpg)
 
This would remove the dead base spot without actually spitting the front and rear pairs of cylinder ports, but put something in this low pressure spot (ummmm, center of the storm dead area), but under no circumstances restrict flow. One and a half inches would be the perfect height, and the two inch width wouldn't force any restriction at high rpm.  If you don't want to afix them permanently, that's OK, and since it is air gap, put one or two small drill/tapped screw holes in it, you could lock it in bottom up (as in drill/tap this shape, stick a stud in it and nylock it from the bottom, would give you a major test of before and after testing, cool, huh?). Calculating port size, height, etc., I think this is the right balance between bottom end assistance and higher rpm (5000+) and still not restricting flow. I will try to make one and take a picture, I am being very technically unfriendly in this, just more of my "staying off the grid" mentality. I'll make a clay model of one and get a picture of it. I can do that, give me a day or two on that though (visitors over the weekend).
dana442010-02-27 23:01:38
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 27, 2010, 06:45:45 PM
I get my Pipe and read that in a minute.  But first

This is what I need to make

(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/HughesTB.jpg)

This is what I have so far

(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/TB7.jpg)

I used some PC 7, not as viscus as JB unfortunately.  I am hoping it will flow in time.  I took a piece of blister pack from a tool package and made a dam with it.  Vasolined the crap out of it so it wouldn't stick.  Tomorrow I'll put another layer on.  I'll probably have to do some clean up inside.  The hole will be about a 9/16 " which is slightly larger than the IAC opening.  I'll shape it at the top to prevent whistling.

I am going to look at the holes where the bolts go in and see if I can drill some out to recess the socket head cap screws.  My hardware guy is closed tomorrow, so I'll have to get the bolts Monday.  I'll see if they have some SAE washers which would be about 7/16 Diameter.  I can drill up to 1" holes, and from there it's greenlees


Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 27, 2010, 06:49:58 PM


Quote from: dana44
Quote from: POLARACO


(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)Yep, yep, yep, all happy about it so far. Nice rounding of the edges, and OK, better picture angle, and the AIC thing, make it a pentagram as wide as the rounded part at the bottom and straight up the sides of the rounded sensor. Should keep it from making noise or whistling, and on top of it, the sensor is electronically controlled through the rpm, so if it drops, air increases, if it goes too high, it shuts down, also controls the idle increase for AC on mode, so that should be large enough, helps give you more area to round once it is filled in a bit.
 
Been thinking about the shape most appropriate for the splitter in the intake, and I think something like the shape of a cam lobe would be best, kind of an egg pointed top, about an inch and a half tall, about two inches wide at the bottom, then from the half inch from the bottom (measuring bottom to top) should be one inch wide, and from this point, tapered half inch rounded outward to the two inch wide base (kind of looking like a cam lobe profile wave picture). Take one wave from the bottom to the top and back down to the bottom, and if this makes sense, the line cutting this picture in half, take the two bottom outer side line ends and drag themoutward to the floor of the intake. (in essence, below the 3000rpm range, this is what the dead area under the TB and at the base of the intake manifold pretty much looks like with smoke). EDIT: My sine wave picture didn't stick(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif).
(http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspxq=1625176736551&ampampampid=cd8990ff868f77ce3ab47ea6260585b8&ampampampurl=http%3a%2f%2fi148.photobucket.com%2falbums%2fs23%2fdarqueknight88%2fsoloist-se%2fSoloistSERtSine-6x4.jpg)
 
This would remove the dead base spot without actually spitting the front and rear pairs of cylinder ports, but put something in this low pressure spot (ummmm, center of the storm dead area), but under no circumstances restrict flow. One and a half inches would be the perfect height, and the two inch width wouldn't force any restriction at high rpm.  If you don't want to afix them permanently, that's OK, and since it is air gap, put one or two small drill/tapped screw holes in it, you could lock it in bottom up (as in drill/tap this shape, stick a stud in it and nylock it from the bottom, would give you a major test of before and after testing, cool, huh?). Calculating port size, height, etc., I think this is the right balance between bottom end assistance and higher rpm (5000+) and still not restricting flow. I will try to make one and take a picture, I am being very technically unfriendly in this, just more of my "staying off the grid" mentality. I'll make a clay model of one and get a picture of it. I can do that, give me a day or two on that though (visitors over the weekend).

Ed you totally lost me.  Get out the crayons and show me.

By the way. . .I used that to touch up my little FUBARS too.  The throats are polished on top now, but I stopped because of all the grinding I will be doing around the top to get it smooth.  I plan on beveling the tops more if there is enough meat in the body.  Hell it will flow better just the way it is!
POLARACO2010-02-27 23:58:37
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 27, 2010, 07:43:12 PM
True, but why stop when there is even more room for improvements?
 
I will get the crayons out and take a picture of whatever it is I design, even if it is an apple I carve.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 27, 2010, 08:11:51 PM
don't make it too hard. . .My hands shake alittle.  Good thing I don't do brain surgery. OOPS!
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on February 28, 2010, 12:50:58 PM
Hey ED!  Hurry UP!  I'm stalled here
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on February 28, 2010, 04:10:53 PM
Stalled? I thought you were in stasis from the snow!
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 01, 2010, 11:28:27 AM
No. . .it snows outside.  The shop is a toasty 65 degrees.
 
I wanna see your apple so I can get that done.  My bearings will be here soon, so I want to get going.  I'm looking for the end of March to do this.  It's real close.  If I have to get ready and have everything on hand for a quick swap.  This will be an in and out except for balancing the converter
 
POLARACO2010-03-01 16:31:05
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 01, 2010, 12:26:39 PM
Well!  To my pleasant surprise. . . .
 
I spoke with Kevin at Hughes Performance. . .
 
He was telling me the mods we're doing to the throttle body could cause a flat spot.  But it's more prevelent in towing.  So we'll see.
 
The surprise is, Hughes watches our site!
 
Since I brought this particular thread to their attention, I have a couple of messages for Hughes.
 
1.  Why not become members and run specials for these guys???   All But Stan have some money. . . . .  He's grinding his own cams with stones. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
2.  Kevin (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)  Thank you
3.  Dan. . .He's a new guy. . .  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)  Stay away from the computers! (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley11.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
4.  I'll take a set of samples of your rockers for this Magnum. . .   I have to put my barge up against Eherenbergs Dak.  And yes, I did tell him to install the air gap. . .  He didn't respond.   We'll have to take the Jersey mob up there and cut off his pony tail. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley12.gif)
 
POLARACO2010-03-01 17:44:17
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 01, 2010, 01:50:37 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
Well!  To my pleasant surprise. . . .
 
I spoke with Kevin at Hughes Performance. . .
 
He was telling me the mods we're doing to the throttle body could cause a flat spot.  But it's more prevelent in towing.  So we'll see.
 
The surprise is, Hughes watches our site!
 
 
Absolutely a flat spot will occur, which is one reason why I said taper the top so there is a drop from outside edge of the air hood to the venturii outer entrance. Remember the novel about dead spots and flat surfaces?????????
 
The other thing that causes the dead spot is the thing I am going to make for you to pattern something more solid out of, because I mentioned the talk about smoke and suction fans in a room???????? Dead spot and flat spot are the same thing. It is too much volume and not enough force to get volume A into port B at low flow (thus a dead spot, lack of flow, suction, movement, as in too much volume, but a fine line of too much space taken up to remove the dead spot and then causing restriction/limitations at higher rpm. I gotta get it right, then someone can talk to me about it if they want).
 
No distrespect intended or wanted towards Hughes, they have some pretty good product, but I am sooooo sorry, they are thinking inside the same box as everyone else. The thing is, between 15 and 29-30 years ago, I asked all these questions and while I was a Padawan, I was taught how to fix each and every one of them, including routine updates to go from Carburetors, to TB to EFI, how to improve the flow from factory components, exhaust advantages, and outstanding head porting techniques. Here is one that really pisses me off. They went to the trouble to return the Hemi, then they turn around, put dished pistons in it, then do all that garbage to the combustion chamber. I hate the mentality that high compression (up to 12:1) needs higher octane to survive, I hate that they haven't figured out that VVT systems can't be altered to increase bottom end torque the way they do to increase top end performance. I am aghast that intake systems are so inefficient and that mileage hasn't increased more than it has. In short, there are improvements in the amount of power and performance over the engines we were basically raised on, but it is technology increases similar to a natural advancement from snail mail to email, to which the engine technology advances is simply the avancement of having computers without any email addresses.
 
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 01, 2010, 05:28:06 PM
So in a nutshell
 
The engine manufacturers are doing wonders with electronics, but a lousey job on the simple stuff like smoother flows. 
 
I have to say, the 5.9 head sand castings are far better then the GM 350. . .
 
As far as Hughes is concerned, I have to disagree.  They are far smarter than the site leads you to believe.  Like this cam as an example.  I told him what I wanted to do and in 2 seconds he had the solution.  The website isn't telling the whole story with them.  I say it needs more info.  Too much confusion when trying to figure out what you need.  BUT! They are aslo going with the flow.  Kevin recognized what I am doing and was surprised I went this far to get a few more miles per gallon.  I told him I had a good teacher on this.  Even if he is a swabbie. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
Maybe I should buy that valiant, throw the Perkins and trans in Polaraco, slap a turbo in, some injectors, Inter cooler, and forget about all this.  LOL  Nahhhh  I would rather do it to another C.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 01, 2010, 09:25:07 PM
Steve, no problems with cutting single cam profiles, I am glad they were quick enough to figure out what I told you needed done to get the mileage up and real low rpm torque numbers, that's good. Don't think I said anything about any of the guys over there being unqualified, there are a lot of good guys out there, it just isn't showing up from the factories like Mopar used to do back in the 60s and early 70s (GM has always been sloppy, they just got arrogant after the 1955 Daytona 500 and the two laps ahead of everyone else by finding the loophole on tire size...everyone ran 15inch, Chevy did 16inch).  It looks like they did a good job on the cam, was glad to see that. Did you get my personal I sent you?
Ed
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 02, 2010, 06:42:59 AM
We agree on the Factories.
 
That Air Gap intake was an answer to the factory blunder. . . .
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 02, 2010, 07:21:09 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
We agree on the Factories.
 

Don't forget about the excess cam splash into the top of the valley pan area. Better materials, heavier duty, may not always be the fastest, but they are definitely the last to blow up in the extreme zones, last longer than most of the other factory original stuff on the road. Always room for improvements, which is why there is aftermarket and hotrods, right?
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stitcherbob on March 02, 2010, 09:32:56 AM
the Air Gap was more expensive to cast because of the water passages in the smallblock.....the B and RB Mopars may have been the originator or the air gap idea.....early Hemi, Stude and Caddy/ Olds engines had separate valley covers, but not a lot of room between it and the manifold for air to flow through....

Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 02, 2010, 10:36:02 AM
There is close to 2" of space on this one. 
 
You are right though. . . . .  But the B & RB had limited space and usually had the insulation crunched in there
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: glen cyr on March 03, 2010, 08:23:49 PM
 (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/26/gi.jpg)If you were running an air cleaner,...this would be the perfect suppliment to finnish it off with
 
Glen
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 04, 2010, 07:23:29 AM
Quote from: stitcherbob
the Air Gap was more expensive to cast because of the water passages in the smallblock.....the B and RB Mopars may have been the originator or the air gap idea.....early Hemi, Stude and Caddy/ Olds engines had separate valley covers, but not a lot of room between it and the manifold for air to flow through....

Could have been simplified one of two ways: Valley pan like the B/RB blocks, or a valley pan like the early Hemi, with a cast lip gasket and a pan with two bolts to cover with a plate. Water passage could have been separate, didn't have to be cast as part of the manifold, but that isn't a big deal.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: glen cyr on March 04, 2010, 09:30:04 AM
The manifold for a 455 Pontiac is a perfect example: (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/26/0706_hppp_04_z+intake_manifold_replacement+edelbrock.jpg)

Once cut,..it makes an easy job at the track for testing or getting to a bad lifter a little easier without dropping the coolant as can be seen on this pic of the manifold having being cut just behind the coolant crossover. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/26/0706_hppp_11_z+intake_manifold_replacement+performer_rpm.jpg) owatajrkiam2010-03-04 14:31:18
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 04, 2010, 10:11:31 AM
Yep, and if you look at it, the water passages in the rear have water hoses on them so that fixes that issue. Oh, well, it's already done with, no real skin lost over the whole thing.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 04, 2010, 10:43:13 AM
Quote from: dana44
Quote from: stitcherbob
the Air Gap was more expensive to cast because of the water passages in the smallblock.....the B and RB Mopars may have been the originator or the air gap idea.....early Hemi, Stude and Caddy/ Olds engines had separate valley covers, but not a lot of room between it and the manifold for air to flow through....

Could have been simplified one of two ways: Valley pan like the B/RB blocks, or a valley pan like the early Hemi, with a cast lip gasket and a pan with two bolts to cover with a plate. Water passage could have been separate, didn't have to be cast as part of the manifold, but that isn't a big deal.

It's done that way to shorten the block.  That's why you have a 2" spacer on the fan.  Also the reason the distributor is not in the front.
 
Bob. . .what makes you think the B and RB arn't more expensive to cast.  I say it's a wash
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 04, 2010, 05:03:19 PM
Well boys. . .   The rod bearings are here, so the bottom will be done this weekend for sure.

It's getting the windage tray too.

Ed

A few other guys are question the cylinder chambers.  They want to know why I didn't polish them.  They are almost as rough as the intake ports.

Comments?


Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 04, 2010, 05:49:59 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/Valvecover.jpg)








 
I treated myself and the engine.  I was told these are hard to get too.  It won't make it run any better, but they will sure be perdy in [color=#66ccff size=4]BLUE[/color]
 
POLARACO2010-03-04 22:50:49
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 04, 2010, 06:21:29 PM
Same reason as the ports. The fuel/air gets suspended because the flow that gets close to the surface of the ports themselves are forced to move away, just like skipping off the atmosphere, and just like the little pingpong balls at the fair being tossed into the fish bowls. The tiny curves don't let things stick to the surface, aerodynamically they force things away from the surface. Same thing happens to the surface with flame. Ever watch the flame dance around inside a bowl? It makes the surface tiny shaped charges and it keeps the amount of carbon buildup down because the flame doesn't touch the surface, it curves towards each other flame and pushes outward. When flames push outward to one another, they expand (isn't that the purpose of an exposion, to expand outward as much as possible, increase the kill zone?).
 
My old sets of heads I have edged and done this to in the past, you can still see the marks and the color of the reworking of the surface. If the area was discolored from use, whenever you pull the heads off you will still be seeing the color the metal was when you ground them, they remain that clean (which kind of surprised the heck out of me). I have had stock heads for early rebuilds, before I ported heads, and even cleaned before reassembly, looked just as dirty as they were when they were taken off the first time. I pull a set of my ported and edged chambered heads, you can see each and every mark done by the carbide burr cutters, all nice and clean and semi-shiny (after 100,000 miles, have to expect some change in color).
 
How about this for efficiency. My PT got the treatment, had it smogged at 87,000miles (ported/edged the head at 34,000, still under warranty). With the exception of the CO level, all my numbers, completely stock because of smog rules, were otherwise ZERO. I had to double-check the "PASS" box because I have never seen an engine run five zero outputs and a 14 for CO (average was 28, high something like 54). Cleanliness baby, burn it all, exhaust it all, that's what I say.  Your engine will do the same if not mistaken, what with the computer control and shorter than stock duration, and even with the greater lift.
Ed
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: glen cyr on March 04, 2010, 06:48:57 PM
I've got the same valve covers sittin on my Eddy's except mine are natural and completly polished. I used an allen type fastener in stainless steel as it is easier to get off and on with a long allen key. Here's a few shots of some other covers in blue as i'm also thinking of doing the blue insert over the polished cover like one of these is showing. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/26/jp2.jpg) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/26/IM006184a.jpg)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 04, 2010, 06:51:58 PM
There seems to be different opinions on this.  But, if it's OK, I am going to have him read your response.  The guy is pretty sharp too.  We dance on the diesel forum all the time helping people.  Stewart used to build allot of Mopar race engines.  As we know, there is a big difference between daily driver and Track.
 
Thanks Ed. 
 
You thinnk that valve cover will look cool in blue?
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 04, 2010, 06:56:48 PM
They look cool Glen
 
It's making me think about painting the engine the same color as the car now.  But they would look reall cool in the small block blue too.
 
I'm really trying to fool the morons at the inspection station.  Come to think of it, in three years, I have only taken the car for inspection once.  Maybe after this motor is done.
 
Just got notification the MP HP pooter for the 5.9 is on the way.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
 
All I need is the flex plate and the weights and I have everything for the drop.  They are at the dealer too.  Lets do it. 
 
I NEED SOME SKILLED HELP!
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 05, 2010, 10:48:13 AM
Yeah, the valve covers look really nice. Good color and nice offset with the silver of the aluminum.
 
Racers go back and forth all the time between the burr surface and polished surface all the time. I know for a fact that the flow numbers increase 3-5cfm on the flow machines, but it doesn't show or tell the story on the performance and economy end. If you find a person that can tell the difference between the two heads from the driver's seat perspective, I'll give you a plug nickle. Here is a major difference I have seen, based on a test done way back in the early 80s to actually make a comparison. Driving the engine on the street for a year, roughly, both engines had their heads pulled. The sandpaper rolled surface had what I would call splash clean spots, basically where the flow would curve around corners and such were spotless, a bit of dirty stuff before those locations, so like sandblasting a part, you could see the blasted spot and the edge that was outside the blasting zone, which would collect fuel, dust and oil and kind of crust up. It wasn't bad, but it was a real test knowing where flow wasn't quite as fast on the surface as other spots. Compare this to the burr surface and it was night and day actually. Any spot where the flow slowed down where the previous head was dirty, there was a slight discoloration but not the crustiness as the polished heads. It's more like you could see where the flow was slower (like the polished heads) but not a build-up of actual material, more like a ghost film. Combustion chamber-wise, polished becomes crusted and requires scraping to remove the coking, the burr surface areas are cleaned with a light wire brush, no crust (EVER). This is an indication that the little chips left in the surface of the ports and combustion chamber keep the surface tension of the flow from being able to land on the surface, but skip near the surface and continue in the flow. It could be applied to the way a golf ball goes farther through the air with all the dimples as apposed to a golf ball that is smooth (it is a physical increase of 30percent farther distance in travel), to which Mythbusters did dimples on a car (it was a pretty cool episode) to see if it would increase gas mileage. A clean car, a dirty car, and a dimpled car. I can't remember the actual numbers, but the clean car got X mileage, a dirty car got X - 12 percent, the dimpled car got X + 14percent mileage. They even added the weight of the clay to the other cars to make it fair. The dimples, like the burr surface, prevent the fuel from leaving the air suspension, smooth allows fuel to stick (and possibly the sandroll scratches catch the fuel, then the heat re-evaporates, which is why the gunk increases over time), kind of like plaque buildup in arteries. After seeing the results myself, I will never polish the surfaces again.
 
Now, full-out racing, where 3-5cfm can be the difference, that is a different story. If you are running full-out 5000rpm and above for 5-10seconds at a time, one needs all the help they can get, but that isn't street driving, is it? The burr cutting doesn't affect top end rpm or ability, but the polished surfaces does affect low rpm flow stall. It is akin to that engine that all the sudden, when you hit 3000rpm and it simply jumps, power increases all the sudden and the seat dyno really puts the smile on your face. This is flow velocity overcoming problems in the flow, like a bend, or a dip, or a large area under the throttle body/carburetor and the air pulls hard enough to "round the edges", just like water in a river. Slow flow goes all around rocks, and as the speed of the river increases, it will jump over the rocks to move faster. The more dead spots you can remove the better, means less work to produce the same power and removes those 3000rpm jumps in power for smoother power and better mileage to boot.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 05, 2010, 06:53:21 PM
It needs a finishing coat and polishing.  There's a few places in the hole that need to be filled too.  But it's getting there.  I'm going in to watch the history channel and play.  Tomorrow I'll fill in the woes on top with some JBWeld.  That stuff flows out better than PC 11 does.  But PC 11 is really tough stuff.  Then I get the fun of sanding all over again (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif)

(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/TB9.jpg)


Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on March 06, 2010, 09:52:32 AM
Good posts Dana44! I agree with what you are saying. I am going to try this method of a slightly rough polish in the combustion chamber on something one of these days. I was taught to leave some things alone and to polish other areas when porting heads. We usually polished the combustion chamber to mirror shine. In my efforts for speed I have even tried ceramic coatings on the combustion chamber and piston tops for some of my builds. It seemed to work great. I am not sure how much of a return it would give a guy for street use, but like most tricks they all add up to help build performance.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 06, 2010, 12:43:14 PM
OK, with the throttle body top, remember, a slight taper to the venturii prevents the dead spots, kind of like a vortex, outer hedges high, inner direction lower and flow will naturally move that direction. Good job on the pintle hole, that should do well for idle.
 
As I stated, there is a major difference between the street driving and the high rpm only driving applications. And like I said, over the years the combustion chambers remain cleaner than the polished chambers. Case in point, a set of closed chamber 361 heads I had driven more than 100,000 miles in my first 68 Charger. The sparkplugs started getting fouled, from what I thought was the valve guides (they had been replaced with bronze guides and 100K was supposed to be a lot of miles on them). I pulled the heads, looked at the valves and couldn't tell which ones were fouling the plugs, didn't clean them because I was going to have new springs, guides and a .010 shave anyway. I had ported these heads before the 100K, edged the heads quite a bit to remove the lip and sharp edges, original valves had 125K miles on them. When the head guy called, he said the heads were put together poorly what with the miles they had on them. I asked why he said that and how many miles did he think the heads had on them. He said, well, due to the condition of the bronze guides, which he said were fine, somewhere around 6000miles or so, the umbrellas were cooked and leaking and the valves were starting to show wear. It took quite a bit of convincing that the heads had been ported at 125,000miles and at that time guides were put in, no seats, stock valves and 100,000 more miles put on the heads (you can still see the shiny burr cuts from removing the lip and rounding to the head gasket of the combustion chamber, a couple dusky colors where I was conservative around the exhaust bolt bosses, but otherwise, a gallon of solvent and parts brush made them look just fine. He said they were .002 out of square for the shave. I ain't never seen this with a stock head (cleanliness-wise), or the fact that plugs would foul to the point of missing without being able to tell which cylinder it was when the heads were pulled (which are usually black and greasy,  not the normal dull dusky black and cream colored exhaust valves), and no, hardened seats aren't a requirement due to the good materials initially used by the factory and I stick by all those statements every time. At this point, two exhaust valves were replaced, said they couldn't take another grinding (which I conceded after all the convincing I had to do about the amount of miles on the heads to begin with).
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 06, 2010, 04:41:36 PM
Quote
OK, with the throttle body top, remember, a slight taper to the venturii prevents the dead spots, kind of like a vortex, outer hedges high, inner direction lower and flow will naturally move that direction. Good job on the pintle hole, that should do well for idle.

Yup!  They are.  Can't tell in the picture because I did such a good job. 
 
I filled in the top where the woes were and a crevis in the cavity last night.  It's ready now, but I am pretty beat.  And here is why
 
Check out those sexy valve covers
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/59paint1.jpg)
 
There's the windage tray.  If I get time tomorrow, I am going to finish cleaning the inside of the pan and install it.
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/59Wtray.jpg)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 06, 2010, 04:51:35 PM
Pretty baby's butt blue! Looks nice.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 07, 2010, 12:35:06 PM
Obviously that is not the intake going on there. . .
 
I'm stalled.  I was hoping to have it all painted up by now, but the alledged 360 oil pan a friend gave me turned out to be a 318 pan.    Hello Summit?
 
There's another 150.00 shot in the ass.  May as well.  I went this far.
 
Hey Ed. . .Stu
 
This thing is pretty snug, Eeverything was fitted to the engine as it was machined.  Usually I start out with what ever oil I have on hand for the first 3 or 4 hours of running time, and change it again.  That's just to get any dirt and stuff out and all that assembly lube.
 
Then I run 10W/30 for the first thousand.  And then went to 10W/40  or 15W/40 from there on.
 
What do you guys do?
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 07, 2010, 01:02:55 PM
Pretty much the same thing. Usually the first oil change from 10-30 is around 500 miles, take the oil filter apart and check for stuff there. There is usually a little bit of fine particles, look for big stuff, chips, things like that.
 
Hey, I saw an actual combustion chamber showing of a set of Edelbrock Performer heads done for the Amzoil Challenge in Mopar Muscle magazine (I know you guys don't like the mag for some of its opinions, but this is a pretty well organized test between six companies to build an engine with parameters for all). This year was a 400 block stroking with a 440 crank for 451cubic inches, some went with a 4inch stroker for 500 cubic inches. The May edition shows a set of the Edelbrock heads that were almost properly edged the way I like to do it, they missed the outside edge, but they cut the lip that crosses the bottom of the valves (page 35), and then over on page 38 there is a head picture to compare the burn pattern with. The edged head, the way I always talk about, put out 1.6hp per cubic inch, the highest of all engines, so a 451 put out 723hp and 568lb-ft torque (put them in third place, but the highest hp range of even the 500cubic inch competitors. The major comparison to make between the two pictures (they don't have them on the website yet, I checked), is the cleanliness between the two heads. You can see full burn pattern on the edged head, the other one has some dead spots (spotless and uneven and very dirty), which isn't good. Imagine what this 451 would have done with 500cubic inches! The article says this engine was still adding hp above the 7000rpm the test used as its baseline, still rising at 7500rpm (not too bad for a big block!). I have been looking for years to see someone that would actually do this and this is the first time in at least twenty years to show the difference between the two without having to hunt several magazines, and in my book, what with the biggest numbers produced in hp and slightly lower in torque than some of the others (oh, well), it was by far the better engine.  In reading all the results for the builds, they were more than 100hp and 50lb-ft above the winner, but I think it was more expensive parts itself which resulted in them not winning the actual competition (hard to judge based on descriptions for parts costs, but nothing fancy as far as I could tell).
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on March 07, 2010, 02:20:50 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
 
This thing is pretty snug, Eeverything was fitted to the engine as it was machined.  Usually I start out with what ever oil I have on hand for the first 3 or 4 hours of running time, and change it again.  That's just to get any dirt and stuff out and all that assembly lube.
 
Then I run 10W/30 for the first thousand.  And then went to 10W/40  or 15W/40 from there on.
 


I found some super magnets from old hard drives to put on the oil filter. Any magnetic debris will collect inside the filter. Just swap it over to the new one each time. Cheap trick that works.
 
I usually plan on dumping the oil and filter within an hour of firing a new rebuild. When I go to fire up I go through a list to make sure that everything is hooked up correctly. My main goal is to be able to fire it up, do any small tuning adjustments and drive it as soon as possible.
 
The best possible time to seat the rings is while the cylinders are relatively rough. So I fire the engine up, check for any leaks, do some small tuning like adjusting the distributor, bring it up to full opperating temperature and then start driving it. Depending on the type of camshaft I will run the engine differently during the first half hour of runtime after startup. For instance a flat tappet cam requires a special break in than a roller cam.
 
Once I take my new machine for a test drive, I run it through the gears at about 1/2 throttle with a slight load on the engine. Keeping an eye on the temps I run the engine through about 3 or 4 half throttle runs loading up the engine a bit more on the the last couple of runs. If everything is working correctly I will run it through the gears at 3/4 throttle back to back for 3-4 runs. Then I do 3-4 full throttle runs and head back to the shop. The rings will be 99.9% seated after doing this. So from startup, minor tuning, cam break in, ring break in till I get back to the shop takes me around an hour or so.
 
I let it cool down to stone cold before my next startup. While it is cooling down I take the opportunity to dump the oil and filter. I also cut the filter to check for any debris. The hard drive magnet makes it very easy to see if there was a problem. I run the engine moderately hard for the next 500 miles and I change the oil again at 1000 miles. After that I consider the engine broken in and change it every 3500 miles from then on.
 
I usually run 10W30 in my gassers during their whole life. I have also used 15W40 oil for my semi truck in some gas engines. I had to warm them up longer when it was real cold out and keep my rpms down until the oil warmed up. When I tore one down to rebuild for another project I found no appreciable wear and tear on the engine. Everything was in excellent condition. Someone had told me that the bearings would be scuffed from running the thicker semi oil but I did not find any scuffing or rolled bearings. I believe that I was running just enough bearing clearance in that engine for the thicker oil to work during warm up.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 07, 2010, 03:56:23 PM
For both you guys.
 
I use a magnetic drain plug and put a magnet on the bottom of the oil filter all the time.
 
You have me thinking Stu.
 
The engines from the factory are so far from being perfect, it's incredible.  The allow + or - 3 on the crank alone.  A remanufactured engine, such as this is, is essentually blue printing.  These engines will twice as long.  A maintained magnum is getting 400,000 out of them with minimal repairs.  I had a 120,000 5.2 apart and it had .003 worth of ridge.  Chrome rings will leave even less.  My goal.
 
That said, It's probably wise to run the 10W/30, at least until I go to synthetics, which would be 20,000 into the build.
 
Ed. . .
You have a scanner?  Can you swabbies figure them out?  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on March 07, 2010, 04:55:33 PM
You are right. After you true up a seasoned engine they sure last a lot longer the second (or more) time around. I have a couple of engines that after the initial blueprinting have only needed new bearings after 130,000 hard towing miles. The engines did not burn a bit of oil but the oil pressure would fluctuate slightly between loading the engine and letting off the throttle so I knew it was time to tear them down. Every time I rebuilt one of them I cranked up the hp and torque also. I doubt I will ever wear them out.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 07, 2010, 04:58:19 PM
See, I never had that running the 40 weight.  Makes me wonder now.  And I don't let them warm up very long either.   (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 07, 2010, 05:30:40 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif)



I learned something new today about small block oil pans.  I found out how to identify a 273/318/340 pan from a 360 when you are looking at it.
 
It seems, Chrysler chose to have a very large rear main cap, and the 360 has a smaller cap.
 
When you look at a stock pan, if there are two holes in it to pull the rear rubber seal through, (One on each side near the gasket flange) it is a 318 pan.  You can also tell as the rear arc is about the same size as the front.
 
If it has no holes and the arc is smaller than the front, it's a 360 pan.  The 360 rear main cap has a groove the rubber seal sits in also.
 
End of Small Block Oil Pan Lesson 101
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 07, 2010, 06:53:55 PM
Depends on what kind of scanner you are talking about. You talking a Suntune 1000  electric/electronic spark and gas chromatograph or something else? Had one I used way back before I became a swabby, so that was like 28years ago. Other scanner would be the handheld programmer, several of them out there for the 5.2/5.9/Hemi engines, I believe Hypertech is one of the brands available, haven't heard anything bad about them, pretty much stupid-proof, if you know what I mean as far as tuning goes.
 
I usually end up running 10-40, not because it is heavier, but because it holds its properties when warmer, but then again, I don't live in the frickin' north pole, to which I would move to 10-30 during the winter time.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: glen cyr on March 07, 2010, 07:02:56 PM
And did you know the 318/340 windage tray is a smaller one than the 360 as it had to be to compensate for the different stroke. When you install a 4.00" stroker crank in the block you need the 360 windage tray to clear the rotating assembly.
 
Glen
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 07, 2010, 07:28:35 PM
Well there you go
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 09, 2010, 12:36:23 PM
I'm in a Jam
 
The oil pan I have was thought to be from a 360.  It's not.  So!  I ordered one from Summit.  4 to 5 weeks.  I'm planning on installing this motor sooner than that.
 
Anybody have a 360 pan to fit a C?
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: glen cyr on March 09, 2010, 01:11:21 PM
Try these guys.It's gotta be a center sump model for a car and not a rear sump for a truck. They have 8 in stock and they will UPS it. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Black-Chrysler-Plymouth-Dodge-Mopar-360-Stock-Oil-Pan_W0QQitemZ270538834388QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item3efd5f01d4#shId (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Black-Chrysler-Plymouth-Dodge-Mopar-360-Stock-Oil-Pan_W0QQitemZ270538834388QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item3efd5f01d4#shId) Also your local Chryler dealer can probably get the MP unit in a few days. It comes with the dipstick and sump tube,which you probably don't need. PN  P5249059.
Mancinni's and a few others come to mind also.
Glen
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 09, 2010, 01:45:31 PM
Heh
 
Chinese Junk, but I had just bought one just before I came on line and saw this. 
 
Thanks Glen (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 13, 2010, 07:08:52 PM
Oh Lord. . .Please stop the rain and give me 5 days of sunshine and warmth. . . (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
Well!  It's done.  Tomorrow I am going to go look up the high Po logs I have from the 5.2 and get them soaking so I can paint then up.  All I need to is let the paint dry, put some oil in it and prime her up.
 
Things left to do
 
I await Ed's Apple  Hint Hint Hint.
Finish sanding the throttle body and assemble it again
Polish the Throttle body adaptor. 
Those two items will be ready tomorrow.
 
Then it's take Polaraco down and start transplanting.  I figure 1 day out. . . 2 days cleaning and transplanting, 1 day in.  But over all, 1 week.  There's a short list I want to do of things in Polaraco with the engine out.
 
(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/truck.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/truck.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/truck.gif)  (http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/00000004%5b1%5d.gif) 
POLARACO2010-03-14 20:43:47
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 14, 2010, 04:33:57 PM
Well here we go everyone.  I'll have a debate on the exhaust manifolds next
 
It's painted and all assembled except the valve covers.  They have to come off to  take the intake off.  The throttle body is all painted up. . .  I used some vasoline to cover the parts I don't want paint on.  Washes out with just soap and water.
 
I finished polishing the adaptor.  Basically, I am done until the weather breaks
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/59paint2.jpg)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/59paint3.jpg)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/59paint4.jpg)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/59TBdone.jpg)
 
POLARACO2010-03-14 20:44:55
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 14, 2010, 04:41:33 PM
OK  Here's the debate
 
We know that Gas Engines need a bit of back pressure.  We also know that, in this case, it helps the MPG.
 
Here is my delema
 
I have custom headers on Polaraco now.  And I have 2 sets of Logs.  One set is from the 92/93 and the set in the picture is 98.
 
Which one should I use?
 
I have 2 1/2 X-Pipe exhaust with turbo mufflers
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 14, 2010, 05:52:27 PM
That one's easy.  Headers.
They still produce enough back pressure.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 14, 2010, 06:28:15 PM
I dunno now with this design and these mods. . .  Headers are good for performance. . .   The 92 Logs flow almost as good as the headers do.  They tell me these logs you see in the picture, (98's) son't flow as well.  But these are cleaner than the 92's.
 
The outlet on these are 1 7/8.  I don't know what they are on the 92 logs.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 14, 2010, 06:31:43 PM
Well then again maybe Stan.  But the Desktop Dyno is soooooo Chebby orientated. . . It's disgusting.  They don't allow for the very sought Magnum Manifolds.  They just allow for stock manifolds, which flow like crap on a Chebby
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on March 14, 2010, 08:54:59 PM
I would use the headers as they not only flow better than any of the cast iron offerings but also tune the exhaust if they are good ones. Headers helped my fuel economy in every application I have used them for.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 14, 2010, 09:56:31 PM
I say, you got headers on her now, leave the headers on her. You have an H pipe in between, right? If not, the pulse counters not enough back pressure and balances the two sides. I am not a big fan of headers because they usually wipe out on the bottom side, but small block Mopars are OK because the spark plugs are above the pipes, and if you are afraid of not enough back pressure, that can easily be fixed, because remember, an exhaust pipe only flows as much as its smallest diameter.......
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 15, 2010, 06:54:01 AM
OK  I got it.  Just being sure.  Header installation is a PITA.  And now I have to get gaskets.  Ugh.
 
If I can get some helpers, I may start this next week.  I'll probably get it ready and pull the intake early and prep it, install it on the new motor and get her all painted up. 
 
Countdown begins
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on March 15, 2010, 08:34:07 AM
Some of the best headers I have run have been Hooker Competition series. I have also run some good ones from Hedman. I have always tried to get the thickest tubed ones I could afford. What ever you do, DO NOT EVER, I repeat, NEVER run Blackjack headers. These poor excuses for a header will only lighten your pocket book. Absolute junk! One of my engines blew them to pieces in less than a week!
 





The best headers I have helped install were ones from Doug Thorley. They make very good street and strip headers. They make their headers with a tri-Y configuration which helps a lot to help build low end torque. They also pay attention to the fireing order of the engine and run their pipes off the heads accordingly. They cost a lot more than any other header out but they are a high quality design with a high quaility finish also.
 
Good luck with your install Steve!
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 15, 2010, 01:52:58 PM
I have Headmans
 
http://www.streetsideauto.com/send_binary.asp?Path=/images/BBTZ/Image/79540.jpg&exact=True&exactx=250&exacty=290&Save=False (http://www.streetsideauto.com/send_binary.asp?Path=/images/BBTZ/Image/79540.jpg&exact=True&exactx=250&exacty=290&Save=False)">
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 15, 2010, 02:02:35 PM
Ed
 
You mean like this?
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/Divider.jpg)
 
POLARACO2010-03-15 18:05:12
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: glen cyr on March 15, 2010, 02:35:35 PM
The shorties are what i'm running also,cept' in stainless steel. One thing you may want to concsider is opening up the outlet with those porting tools you have as it is a small outlet and you can grind alot and open it up pretty good with no leaks. The engine looks great with the valvecovers done in blue. Seeing you build this engine over the last while had my curiosity going as i contemplated doing another small block build. I have plenty of 340 parts left over,so i can mix and match to come up with a descent engine.Lo and behold,...i was looking through the Kijjiji ads and there was an E-58 360 shortblock complete with a new 1,000 lb. engine stand for $80. I removed the caps and the bearings were perfect. It has the smallest amount of ring ridge thanks to the high nickel content in the blocks. When i take it to the machine shop for the hotank and decking,i will see if it can stay with the std. bore or go +.30 over if i need as it seems these are the easiest to find in hyperuectic pistons. Heres a rundown on it.  9.5 KB's with basicaly a sound shortblock with an XE 274 cam. Ported iron magnum heads with the stock rocker setup and a two plane manifolds with one of my modified 850 TQ. I'm gonna do low budget and lots of E- bay shopping. I'll take lots of pics also.
 
Glen
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 15, 2010, 02:41:35 PM
Buy the pistons I did.  At $17.00 a piece, it's a steal.
 








 [color=#ffffff size=2 face=Arial]Pistons[/color]
 Seal Power 
 [color=#ffffff size=2 face=Arial]H405CP .030[/color]
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 15, 2010, 02:42:53 PM
Glen
 
Ed and I were talking about putting a divider in the throttle body adaptor.  See previous page.  That's a picture of what I think he is talking about.  He'll have to explain it. . . .
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 15, 2010, 03:00:32 PM
Steve, I understand you're need for perfection but, at this point, don't you think you're 98% there, and going to take the last 2% to the point you'll go backwards?
Relax, the engine is weet as it is now.(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stewart Van Petten on March 15, 2010, 04:36:42 PM
Quote from: owatajrkiam
The shorties are what i'm running also,cept' in stainless steel. One thing you may want to concsider is opening up the outlet with those porting tools you have as it is a small outlet and you can grind alot and open it up pretty good with no leaks. The engine looks great with the valvecovers done in blue. Seeing you build this engine over the last while had my curiosity going as i contemplated doing another small block build. I have plenty of 340 parts left over,so i can mix and match to come up with a descent engine.Lo and behold,...i was looking through the Kijjiji ads and there was an E-58 360 shortblock complete with a new 1,000 lb. engine stand for $80. I removed the caps and the bearings were perfect. It has the smallest amount of ring ridge thanks to the high nickel content in the blocks. When i take it to the machine shop for the hotank and decking,i will see if it can stay with the std. bore or go +.30 over if i need as it seems these are the easiest to find in hyperuectic pistons. Heres a rundown on it.  9.5 KB's with basicaly a sound shortblock with an XE 274 cam. Ported iron magnum heads with the stock rocker setup and a two plane manifolds with one of my modified 850 TQ. I'm gonna do low budget and lots of E- bay shopping. I'll take lots of pics also.
 
Sounds like a sweet buildup! I love seeing people's engine build ups! Especially "340ized" engines! Start a new thread right away with some pics for us please!
Good luck with your project! (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
 
 
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 15, 2010, 05:10:50 PM
Yeah Glen
 
Getthehelloutamythread  stopstealingmythunder (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
 
Ed, I meant for you to put that here. . .sheeesh.  LOL
 
Copy and paste.  Danna44 and I have been talking in the background.  He must be hiding behind his shorts or something.  LOL
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 15, 2010, 05:11:31 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
Ed
 
You mean like this?
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/Divider.jpg)
 

You want the top to be about pencil width, so it will split the air sideways, and if rounded on top, the area below, which is the eddy area that is dead and causes the low rpm bog (the box area of the intake right below the throttle body is very large and the air kind of goes stagnant right where this thing is), so it will literally prevent the stagnant air from flowing properly, and when the rpm picks up, the pairs of cylinder ports pull past this area into a Y shape and this eddy becomes the eye of the storm, totally neutral. The purpose of this splitter is to turn that dead spot into an area that then doesn't exist, and yet is non-intrusive enough to keep it from causing a flow restriction at higher rpm.

Additionally, the bottom needs to be wider (two inches wide at the bottom and curved out to the end like you have it). As a visual for everyone, if a smoke flow is done to the intake, you will see a stagnant area at the bottom center, smoke just dances around in this area. As noted, 3000rpm is the majic number, to which watching the smoke, it is the point of velocity where the smoke then comes through the venturii and naturally curves directly into an upside down Y and this dead spot clears, but it doesn't do anything, totally neutral. Get rid of it since it isn't needed and you should have a much smoother power curve, and being it is 1.25inches tall and nice big round top the size of a pencil and a cuve from top to bottom, it will control the flow at low rpm and once velocity gets up to the 3000rpm, the flow is already there, and below the 3000rpm range it is not intrusive enough to prevent flow from going where it is needed. dana442010-03-15 21:17:14
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 15, 2010, 05:21:16 PM
OK, but how far down should this be?  Right below the throttle plates, or further down?
 
I'll draw a scale sketch in a bit
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 15, 2010, 05:59:47 PM
Quote from: Ed
  Here we go again. There are four ports for each side of the intake manifold (because there is a divider between the two halves, right?
 
Of the two groups of four, the front two and rear two need to be divided in a way that there isn't any restriction between the two pairs, so it can't be too drastic, but enough to remove a dead spot between the pairs, allowing the air to flow better by simply diverting the air properly. The height should be 1.25 inches tall. It should be a quarter inch wide at the top. The bottom should be two inches wide. There should be a gentle curve from the top to the bottom.
 
If you were to take two 90degree round elbows and hook them together and put them in the intake half then remove the outer shell so the centers were together, this is the shape you want.
 
I am going to try to get the camera fixed to send you some pictures, the other one that downloads turned out to be a Goodwill donation and I lost the ability to download pictures. I have a second camera I have to take apart to see if I can get the download fuction to work, will get back to you pretty soon.

____________________________________________________________________
 
Right, but not tall enough to allow it to force the flow, or restrict the flow from interfering with the cylinders sucking or the throttle body putting more air front or back (of each side), but a little bit of removal of the dead spot at the plenum area.
 
If you think about what the flow itself is doing, it is going past the throttle body into a retangular box and the cylinders pull from the box. The reason for the dead spot is because the volume of air going into the plenum is too great and it goes in and swirls around and the speed dies. The divider simply is in that dead spot and allows the flow to naturally split, removing that dead spot, yet isn't great enough to remove any flow potential when the rpm increases.
 
If the divider is too restrictive (too large) it will split the air and divide it between the two pairs of cylinders and may restrict flow, which is why it is only enough to low flow divide the air. As the rpm increases it pulls in a curve from the venturii and the area that has this divider becomes an eddy anyway and naturally forms a dead spot (kind of the black hole spot or center of a tornado, totally neutral), you are just filling it beforehand and there is enough space below the venturii that it wouldn't pull or force air to the other two cylinder ports in that side of the intake.
 
If you had smoke to show the flow, low rpm would pull the air/smoke into the chamber and there is a fight at this dead spot, and as the rpm increases, the dead spot becomes clear and the smoke then starts turning into two streams that curve nice and smooth directly to the two port pairs like a Y upside down and that dead spot simply clears of smoke. Remove it ahead of time with this little divider and the dead spot disappears ahead of time and bottom end power increases, that's all.
 
Sorry about not being able to get a picture to you, totally sucks to have technology and then not be able to use it to its full potential. Does this help?

_____________________________________________________________________
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/Divider.jpg)
 
Good start, make the bottom wider and that will drag out the flare. Centered should do the right thing to make the dead spot even from the two pairs of ports. Since the throttle body is centered, no reason to think the air would be pulling harder forward or aft, so centered should fix the eddy. Round the top edge, which should be about the width of a pencil, this way it isn't a sharp cut, but an eddy killer and flow around it will be up to the engine demand.  Inch and a quarter tall, two inches wide (one inch each side, width of the divided half, no need to make the deeper half taller, same size both sides, but you got the idea there.

Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 15, 2010, 06:24:46 PM
 
This is dimensional.  The adaptor is 2" high.  We need tp leave room for the IAC to feed all the front cylinders too.  There is a groove across the center divider which allows air to both sides at idle
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/Divider2.jpg)




 
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/59TBadaptor.jpg)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 15, 2010, 08:22:36 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
 
This is dimensional.  The adaptor is 2" high.  We need tp leave room for the IAC to feed all the front cylinders too.  There is a groove across the center divider which allows air to both sides at idle
 
 
The intersection of the 1.5" and the 1" is the BOTTOM of the divider, the 45 degree arms (which would actually be curved) are the sides, the 1" line is still the bottom, the bottom width is still 2" flat across the bottom. Your 45degree spot would actually be at about the .25" from the top of the 1.5" mark. Actually the 1.5" should be 1.25", which should be about half the distance from the bottom of the adapter bottom.
You're getting there
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/Divider2.jpg)




 
 


    .25inch and round    
           _
          / \\
         /   \\     1.25 top to bottom
____/     \\____
2.0inches at bottom
 
Make it a nice rounded curve from the top down to the bottom to help direct flow better.
 
Sorry about the great artistic ability, camera isn't downloading because the download camera was given to goodwill, and Wordperfect SUCKS for drawing pictures.
 
The top should still leave about 3/4 of an inch to the bottom of the adapter, and the opening is more than enough to all the AIC to fuction, and still balance without restricting any flow at all. Remember, it is to get rid of a natural eddy at the bottom, not cut up the flow, the cut at the center of the manifold is a balancing thing, I do it to all dual plane intakes myself, especially with carburetors.
Ed
 
dana442010-03-16 00:29:10
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 15, 2010, 09:01:35 PM
OK  it's all making sense.  I can tin that out, but not too sure I can keep that at a 1/4". 
 
So you are saying the bottom should be no more than 2" wide.  That's a pretty small lip at the bottom
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 15, 2010, 09:31:57 PM
at the top, bend it across the flat of something and it should give you a pretty decent natural curve automatically. In other words, when you fold your metal in half, don't use a hammer to give it a sharp edge, simply start the bend over the edge of a piece of angle iron and roll the sides a little bit. You can take the width of the bottom and make it 2.5, but the wider at the base it gets the less angle the sides have, so, if you are going to do that, the width at the top is about .25", half inch down should be .40", one inch down .75" and from there, flat with the bottom naturally.
 
Do you think you could get a nut onto a stud through the floor of the intake through the air gap? If so, that is how I would attach it, and it wouldn't damage the manifold if you switched to carburetor later. Once this tin pattern is made, fill with epoxy, sink a stud into it (just make sure it is a near tight fit, within say .010 on the sides will be close enough), then mark the manifold with a little paint on the stud head and drill a hole, put a gasket ring on the nut to seal. I would use something like a screw-in stud with a metal head (epoxy to the top, not the bottom of the head) so you can't overtighten the stud/nut and break the epoxy, something like that. And if you change something, pull it out, tap the hole and screw a screw into the hole.
 
dana442010-03-16 01:34:43
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 17, 2010, 07:03:00 PM
OK  I buzzed this past a few stock builders and one racer.  I just want to be sure this is right.
 
Recap
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/CamSpec.jpg)
 
Roller Lifters
1.6 ratio
High tension Acorn Springs
Stock Push rods
 
Here's the gig.  I got the engine primed up last night (I'll clean the oil off the ceiling light when it's finished dripping. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)) [forgot the sending unit]  To get oil up to the top, I had to turn the crank.  With the engine assembled and no plugs, it turns over chunky.  I took the temp intake off and checked it out.  Everything is moving normal. I was pretty sure it was cam to lifter chunky.  When the cam hits a lifter, it tends to hang up slightly.  If you push it through, you can feel the cam hitting the lifters while you have some inertia going on.  If memory serves me correct, there are only two valves open at a time.  One intake and one exhaust elsewhere.  There may be a delay between them.  It turns fairly smooth once you get it moving, but it has a stutter in the stroke.  Slight, but you can only get so much out of a 1/3 of a turn by hand.
 
With that cam, is that feeling correct?
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 17, 2010, 09:59:47 PM
I would say normal, given the roller cam status and lifters that probably aren't pumped up, stuff like that, but do you feel grinding or just coming up to the ramp of a lobe and then a little forceful up and over (my PT 2.4 was the same way, fun setting the timing with it on top of a lobe, wanting to rollover the top real fast).  The coolness of a roller cam.....can you imagine doing this with a flat tappet cam and mathematically figure out how many revolutions it would take to swipe it smooth?  Is there a center bolt you can do a full rotation and note it is a consistent touch, bump and roll, just to make yourself feel good about it?
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 18, 2010, 04:23:34 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
With the engine assembled and no plugs, it turns over chunky. 

We'll find out...
 
(http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00heMtdTSPgfuW/Bomb-Disposal-Suit-BD2009-.jpg)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 18, 2010, 07:49:18 AM
Quote from: dana44
I would say normal, given the roller cam status and lifters that probably aren't pumped up, stuff like that, but do you feel grinding or just coming up to the ramp of a lobe and then a little forceful up and over (my PT 2.4 was the same way, fun setting the timing with it on top of a lobe, wanting to rollover the top real fast).  The coolness of a roller cam.....can you imagine doing this with a flat tappet cam and mathematically figure out how many revolutions it would take to swipe it smooth?  Is there a center bolt you can do a full rotation and note it is a consistent touch, bump and roll, just to make yourself feel good about it?

No. .   I can watch the timing mark though.  There's three hashes on the damper
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 18, 2010, 07:50:16 AM
Quote from: Commando1
Quote from: POLARACO
With the engine assembled and no plugs, it turns over chunky. 

We'll find out...
 

I see you finally got it.  A bit late for your last motor isn't it?
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 18, 2010, 10:16:06 AM
There are smaller cams than this, and the cam should be chucky in quarters since two full revolutions is all eight cylinders. I think it is the great feel of a roller cam being that much slicker than a flat tappet cam, meaning less friction, self-propelling to the next set of valves opening, and the likes. Ramps are much faster on the roller cams, you're just seeing and feeling it up front and close. Doesn't sound like any binding, right? Lifter rolls to the top of a lobe and just falls off the other side, sounds pretty normal for a roller.


If you want to get real touchy-feely, plugs are out, so remove 14pushrods and see how one intake and exhaust lobe feels by itself. It should bouce off the back side after finding the peak of the lobe and rotate a bit past, just from the inertia.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 18, 2010, 11:21:01 AM
I was going to do that.  But just the rockers.  It's not binding, it just takes some effort to push it through depending on where the cam is in relation to the lifters


 
POLARACO2010-03-18 15:22:14
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: glen cyr on March 18, 2010, 12:37:32 PM
I forgot to show you this mod. i do to the oil filter plate. Some small blocks only come with 4 holes in the plate and most later ones had 6. I like to add a few more holes,just for extra insurance. On some of my high rpm engines i've drilled in between every hole,but for the street,every 2nd one as you can see where i would do in the red.(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/26/dcc-5249261ab_w.jpg)Also make sure your pushrods are not binding or rubbing in the pushrod holes through the heads. Magnum heads are notorious for this and i had to even clearance my Eddy's a bit as they were too close for my liking.
 
Glen
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stan Paralikis on March 18, 2010, 12:38:27 PM
This sounds so much like a condition I ignored in 440-WOB #1....(http://www.massmopar.com/yabb/Smilies/lipsrsealed.gif)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 18, 2010, 02:56:38 PM
After the couple times rotating, should be able to see if there is an actual rub, extra checking on the Magnum head holes would be a good idea to check as noted.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 18, 2010, 03:02:19 PM
I checked them when I put the rockers in.  They're all centered on the hole.  Actually, they are hard to mess up with the guides at the top.  That lousey little stamping saves a pile of time.
 
Stan. .  I still think your cam broke.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: glen cyr on March 18, 2010, 03:24:44 PM
I thought i felt a  l i t t l e  vibration.......(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/26/zkf.jpg)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on March 18, 2010, 07:55:20 PM
This is why I always chamfer the oil holes much more than this, along with only using aluminum rods for racing, and domed pistons......you should know better than that. I could talk hours about contouring the tops of domed pistons, but why waste the time, flat topped pistons usually do what needs to be done just fine.
 
 
dana442010-03-18 23:56:24
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on June 22, 2010, 01:22:45 PM
It is alive again
 
Addressing the vibration. . . I found it, but not in a likely place.  And shame on me for not looking into and following my suspicions sooner.
 
I'm 1200 miles into the engine and frankly a bit nervouse about what I found.
 
When I ordered the new spark plugs, my parts guy told me he has a real nice set of Platnum plugs.  The original engine came with a brand new set of RC12Yc Champs, and he gave me a set of Champ 3836's.  I didn't pay any attention to the heat range, I "Assumed" he gave me the right plugs.  Well guess what?
 
Two weeks ago, the car developed a miss.  It came and went and started to belch a bunch of blue smoke.  I thought maybe it was one of the injectors stuck open.  So I orered the 5.9 computer again, (To my delight the price was $100 less this time) and waited.  I had already installed the higher fuel pressure regulator. It has been running OK on that with the older low pressure injectors.  While waiting, I installed the higher output injectors. So now it's up to the 1994 standards, where it should be.
 
The pooter arrived today, all I had to do was plug it an and all was done.  But, the miss was still there. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)  So I decided to check the plugs.  #2 was dead and #1 was not firing to it's full potential.  You could tell by the engine rpm drop pulling one at a time.
 
I still had a couple of those old rusty RC12's that came with the engine, so I wire brushed them and installed them
 
Remember that Vibratio I had?  Almost completely gone.  As it warmed up, the rest of the cylinders smoothed out too.  Ran MUCH smoother and the vibration is gone.  The heat range was at least 4 ranges hotter than the stock plug. . . .  Grrrrrrr   I ask for this, and get that!
 
To make matters worse, the porcelin on #2 was burned and the side of the electrode bar was melted.  This is the part I am worried about.  If it melted that, what did it do to the Cylinder???
 
I'll have the right plugs tomorrow.
 
I'll click a picture fo the 2 plugs, side by side.  Glen, Ed?  Ideas???
 
EDIT
The 3 on the left are the Platnums.  Notice the 3rd one (Circle) That is literally melted.  I found #8 to be shakey to.  That is the one on the far left, #1.  If you look at the ceramics, it's white in one spot.  These plugs appear to be firing everywhere but where they are supposed too.  Spot checked a couple on the odd side, they are all in the same condition as #1 Platnum, but the clean spot is in different areas.  When I see Raymond tomorrow, I'm gonna smack him. . . .  He's 74, 50 years of experience, and a lousey mechanic.  He's loosing it.  We call it "Danonized".
 
The smoke is gone, which is a good thing and it is running smoother with every plug changed.  Tomorrow this will be all resolved.
 
POLARACO2010-06-22 18:59:32
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on June 22, 2010, 08:25:39 PM
Four ranges too hot is a little extreme so it comes down to what was the water temperature itself doing this whole time? If she wasn't doing overheats good, and if the operating temp was not more than 225degrees (electronic engines run hotter out of efficiency, Corvettes I have heard run in the 230-235degree range), then you should be fine. 
 
You have had rich conditions for a while with this setup (electronics, yuk!), and now a question of, was there a lean condition showing on your meter? I recall you noting a fuel/air ratio meter at times, ever go into lean run for long periods of time? If not, no problem really.
 
As long as these two things have been in the norm, I don't think any real problems or damage have occured. A colder and hotter plug is, as your picture indicates, is how protected the spark occurs, which, although it can raise and lower cylinder temperature, there may be a small spot or mark on top of the piston which does happen, not a big deal as long as it wasn't a ping monster (which I know it wasn't, you never mentioned it), and aren't they forged pistons or hypertuetictic pistons (however it is spelled),  then definitely not a problem, cast only has a problem with heavy pinging which makes them more prone to cracking damage, but not an issue here from the sounds of it all.
 
Now the black marks. Caused by two things. One is the index of the electrode arm to the flow of the intake charge, so flow against the side of the spark plug, and second, then the bad bounce of the flame (this is the crud I rant about). Look around the insulator and what do you have? A cylinder in a cylinder and a flat bottom, so, when the flame starts, it goes into this chamber, bounces against the bottom and starts moving back towards itself, which since it is already burned, is only half burned, nowhere to go, so she carbons. The clean pattern is dependent on the wash of the cooling intake charge against its side, unless indexted in relation to the intake valve, it will always be random.
 
Although a mistake which was found, I think the plug went bad more to the excess coil strength and poor quality plugs. I used to go through sparkplugs at 500 miles with a Mallory Unilite ignition in a SBC, could actually listen to the engine exactly at 500miles and say, yep, there goes one, there goes another, and yep, mileage will be down two mpg next trip to the gas station. Only thing that lasted was ACCEL sparkplugs, later, AC, but no Champions ever again, but I have had pretty good luck with Splitfires, not so much the platinum ones other than the Splitfires.
 
Water temp and lean conditions within normal ranges, you will be fine.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on June 22, 2010, 09:21:28 PM
MMMMm  Let me see.
 
Water temps have been realitively normal.  192 to 195*.  crusing it's around 188 with the A/C.  There was a time when there was pinging, but I forget what the cause was, and fixed it.  As I recall, it was something I did with the injection system.
 
If anything, it runs a bit fat.  The meter has been running in the center, getting fatter when accelerating.  But with Fuel Injection, Rich is lean and lean is rich.  It has never run lean for any length of time.  You can smell it.  But the pooter is new too.  Hasn't had 20 miles put on it yet. . .well not until I get the new plugs in.
 
I drove it tonight with just the three plugs, and 2 of them were rusty still, it ran allot smoother. The heavy vibration I had from the beginning is reduced considerably. 
 
 A couple of weeks ago I noticed it was taking longer to start unless I stepped on the pedal.  It was enough to make me think about it.  Then the miss started to come and go.  I thought it may have been the low pressure injectors with the high pressure regulator.  While I write this, I am realizing I don't have the highest pressure regulator in there either.  I need to use the one from a 75 Intrepid 3.3 which runs from 50 to 60 PSI.  I need to be in the higher range to be closer to spec.  This one is 45 to 55, or an intrepid 2.8.  It's hard to tell until I get a complete fresh set in there.
 
I'm running the stock coil.  Never had a plug problem before on that coil.  The 5.2 ran 3 years on the same plugs.  After 35,000 miles, the plugs looked barely worn.  That's waht was so alarming with thet #3 plug in the picture.  I'll know more tomorrow.  I'll change the regulator after  i change the plugs and run it.  The higher pressure will only give me a finer mist.  5 PSI is significant in the fuel injection world.  But the mixture seems to be running a tad fat still, so I still have to experiment.  But it's close.  Real close.
 
Ever since i built this car, I have chased only defective or inferior parts.  I am finally getting the car where I want it.  Last thing left is the 3.23 rear and I can get rid of this 355 with the bad yoke.
 
I looked for the Spitfire's #PP392D, but can't find anyone who sells them.  But I found ther Accels on summit.  Who's a good seller  of the Spitfires?
 
 
POLARACO2010-06-23 02:57:10
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on June 23, 2010, 07:27:45 PM
Used to carry them at Kragen/Schucks/Pep Boys places, but go with the Accels, can't go wrong with them. Is your O2 sensor back too far possibly, or too close? I know there is a certain distance they need to be from the dumps for accuracy, but then again, remember, I have seen time and time again, the handheld computer ajustment tool articles in magazines and online, and first thing each and every one of them notes is the rich fuel/air mixtures, all the way down in the 12.5-12.9 around idle and cruise vice these numbers as WOT, and drive/cruise up to a more normal 13.7. Remember the Lean Burn system? After a few parameters were maintained for a set period of time (water temp, rpm, vacuum), it would then control the fuel/air into a 18:1 air/fuel ratio as long as these parameters were met during cruising, all without damage.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on June 23, 2010, 08:13:34 PM
The O2 is about 2" from the dump.  The meter probe is about 10"  It shows a bit fat right now, and you can smell it.  I can't do anythig until I get the rail pressure up where it's supposed to be but I am blameing the plugs right at the moment.  (I asked for RC12YC and get RJ12YC (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif))
 
My AF gauge is only a bar graph.  I don't have a digital, but it's on the list, after I replace the rear and fix the rust spots popping up, replace the blower motor, cync the Heater controls, go to Oregon, Maybe in 2020.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on June 25, 2010, 07:49:01 PM
I hear you.....
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on June 26, 2010, 08:38:27 AM
Well today I FINALLY got that rear swapped out.  I went from the 355 to the 323 I yanked out of the VOAB.  It's quiet, the sure grip doesn't Chatter and the biggest issue, no driveline vibrations.
 
BUT!  Now the damned thing is pinging while going up hills on the highway.  198*F, 70 MPH, AC on.  So I will move up to middle grade gasoline for the summer.  Seems to be fine when it's operating below 192, which is the Stat temp.  I have to use the 192 because the closed loop doesn't switch out until 175*.   I think I finally got this EFI straightened out.  It's running great!  The MPG, I am not sure of yet. . .   In a couple of weeks I'll be driving it on a 360 mile round trip.  Then I'll know.
 
Inching closer and closer to perfection like Stan is with that stickin Holley.  When a Holley goes bad, you may as well toss it
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stan Paralikis on June 26, 2010, 09:23:49 AM
But now I'll know why it went bad.(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on June 26, 2010, 07:23:38 PM
Can you electronically slow the timing curve down a couple degrees? If you can do that, no more pinging at low rpm(roughly 2800rpm with the 3.23s, right?) You are only a couple degrees advanced at best.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on June 26, 2010, 07:47:08 PM
I can't control a thing on this one. . .It's a sealed unit.
 
I was getting the pinging at 1900 to 2000 with very slight acceleration.  But the motor was real hot too.  It's OK below 192, but climbing hills it starts to ping after it starts to heat up.  That was on crusie control.  If I go faster, it seems to be OK.  But that's like 75 or 80 which is around 2100.  I'm doing 70 at 1900, on the button now.  I dropped 100.  But it was doing it this morning before the rear change too.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Tom Dawson on June 27, 2010, 11:11:28 AM
Steve just use a good set of regular NGK's in the 5.9, Mopar Small Blocks do not like Plat plugs too much.
Tom


Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on June 27, 2010, 02:08:42 PM
I had Plats in the 5.2 and it ran great.  The problem was the hear range was way too high
 
POLARACO2010-06-27 19:10:44
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stan Paralikis on June 28, 2010, 02:37:10 AM

Quote from: POLARACO
I can't control a thing on this one. . .It's a sealed unit.
You just made my point.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on June 28, 2010, 04:29:16 AM
If I wanted to spend mega bucks, I could do anything I wanted.  Yer just lazy
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stan Paralikis on June 28, 2010, 06:47:47 AM

Quote from: POLARACO
If I wanted to spend mega bucks, I could do anything I wanted.  
I could outspend you and outdo you before you even got warmed up.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on June 28, 2010, 08:23:53 AM
Oh I bet you can out spend me. . . .  LOL
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on June 28, 2010, 05:38:50 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
I had Plats in the 5.2 and it ran great.  The problem was the hear range was way too high
 

I still say it is this cam profile you have. The shorter duration and good lift should have been an absolute monster from idle to five grand, but it seems the extra cylinder pressure is being bled off too fast still, preventing cylinder pressure from doing the work of what torque is all about. Sorry the cam grind didn't work out, I feel bad about that, but on the other side, it was only half followed what I recommended, which gives you a cam that actually works at a higher rpm than I was planning (exhaust valves closing too late, intake closing too late, reducing suction for a short duration cam).
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on June 29, 2010, 05:23:45 AM
It's probably that 2.5" exhaust. allowing the bleed off. . .   I finally got gas yesterday, weems like I've been running forever on that tank.  Mostly local and averaged 17.  That includes an injector change in there, pooter change,
 
I don't think all was lost here Ed.  I'll know on the 11th as I will be going on a long trip with the car.  Almost all highway
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on July 02, 2010, 04:03:27 AM
Hey Ed
 
70 miles and I have a misfire already.
 
WTH!  I installed a set of NGK V fires for the time being, and drove the car a total of 48 miles so far.  Ran gerat.  Then yesterday I started it to move it and it was missing
 
DAMN IT
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stan Paralikis on July 02, 2010, 09:02:40 AM

Quote from: Commando1
Quote from: POLARACO
I can't control a thing on this one. . .It's a sealed unit.
(http://www.massmopar.com/yabb/Smilies/whistling.gif)

Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on July 02, 2010, 01:24:47 PM
Then you come up here and shift my transmission for me
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on July 02, 2010, 07:44:33 PM
Are you running solid wires or carbon core wires? Love the solids and hate the carbon core ones. If you read specifics on them, they are good for one pull off from the spark plug and then the continuity starts going south. Other side of the failure is cheap plugs (which NGKs aren't) or voltage problem blowing the core out of the spark plug, or, jumping through the sparkplug wire/insulator and carbon tracking to cause a miss.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on July 03, 2010, 05:03:27 PM
I have those wires wrapped and separated as much as possible.  Last look, there was no carbon tracking in the cap either.  The wires i have are 10 MM HP, but not sure if they were solid core or not.  I ordered a set of solid cores today.  The 10 MM's looked cool, but did nothing for me.  We'll see if that makes a change.
 
POLARACO2010-07-03 22:04:50
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Tom Dawson on July 04, 2010, 07:24:34 AM
Steve does the miss clear up after a few min.? you might have an injector bleeding down, my Intrepid did that, it would clear up and then run great., I'd pull the fuel rail and check for a drippy injector.
Tom


Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on July 04, 2010, 09:41:04 AM
Did that Tom  and they are new
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on July 05, 2010, 08:00:16 PM
You've never had a new part fail?
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stan Paralikis on July 06, 2010, 04:02:02 AM
Quote from: dana44
You've never had a new part fail?
Almost always when it's "NOS" from eBay...(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on July 06, 2010, 06:24:35 AM
Quote from: dana44
You've never had a new part fail?

Not saying that. . . . .  They were checked.  The guy I got them from is a rebuilder.  They are NOS which he referbed
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stan Paralikis on July 06, 2010, 06:53:10 AM
 
Quote from: POLARACO
Quote from: dana44
You've never had a new part fail?

Not saying that. . . . .  They were checked.  The guy I got them from is a rebuilder.  They are NOS which he referbed
No.  I'm talking about when I buy something NOS.  9 times out of 10, it was a warrantee take-off that was thrown back into the OEM box.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on July 06, 2010, 07:03:34 AM
I didn't buy them from EGay.  I bought them direct with a warranty.
 
Yer a pain in the ass.  www.fuelinjectorconnection.com (http://www.fuelinjectorconnection.com)
 
Happy now?
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stan Paralikis on July 06, 2010, 01:54:24 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
I didn't buy them from EGay.  I bought them direct with a warranty.
 
Yer a pain in the ass.  www.fuelinjectorconnection.com (http://www.fuelinjectorconnection.com)
 
I wasn't talking about you.  We're got two different conversations going on here.
KEEP TRACK, WILL YA? (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif)
 
Re: www.foolinjectorconnection.com (http://www.foolinjectorconnection.com)
Way too complicated for me.........
K.I.S.S.
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif)
 
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on July 06, 2010, 02:34:32 PM
You're still a PITA
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Stan Paralikis on July 07, 2010, 03:40:28 AM
Then my job here is done.  I must go now.  (http://www.massmopar.com/yabb/Smilies/happy.gif)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on July 07, 2010, 05:53:57 AM
Thank goodness
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on September 14, 2010, 05:20:09 PM
I thought I would let you know. . .
 
After numerous struggles with the fuel injection, finding the right combo, I finally am getting some real performance and MPG from the car.  After 2000 miles, it's just now starting to break in.  All I need to do yet is tweak the static timing.  It's still a Tad off
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Rich on September 17, 2010, 06:07:28 PM
 I saw your timing map over on the Dock - If I read it right (major league assumption here) it looks like it's only running 30*BTDC under load and 50* BTDC at cruise -- you may want to try adding in a bit more, like 34-36*/52*.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Rich on September 17, 2010, 07:16:13 PM
 Nevermind - I looked at it again and figured out that at zero vacuum you have 38*, and at high vacuum 50*-- should be just about perfect!
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on September 17, 2010, 07:44:47 PM
I didn't have a vacuum curve there. . .   I posted the HP/Torque curves.  I don't have control of the timing.  All I can do is set the static timing at zero and the pooter does the rest.  From everything I read, the pooter will not allow the system to go any more than that 50*.  However, there is a +/- 10%.  So I can advance the static by adding timing.  But I do it at about 2 degrees at a clip.  Right now, I am back at zero.  The car runs good, but I think it could produce more.  Plus, I have not compensated for the 3* cam timing yet.
 
I can only eyeball it.  So I losten the distibutor and just give it a very slight bump.  Static is supposed to be zero.  I might give it 4 on the first shot.  I re-zeroed it because i had finally found the parts to make the EFI work right.  I needed to get the right injectors, but it took a while to find out what I could use as a pressure regulator.  Turns out a 95 Intrepid regulator would give me the 55 PSI I needed.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Rich on September 18, 2010, 08:30:13 AM

I thought from the post where you said 95kPa=0" vacuum and 45kPa=17" vacuum, that the puter did indeed set the timing based on load.
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/171/timing11.jpg)
krautmaster2010-09-18 13:34:12
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on September 18, 2010, 10:36:11 AM
That's not my post.  I never saw that.  Without hooking it up to the scanner and driving it, I wouldn't know
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Rich on September 19, 2010, 07:37:27 AM

 OOOPssss- - that was Furious70's--I forgot that more than one of you guys was running fuel injection... Alzheimers must be creeping up on me...krautmaster2010-09-19 12:38:55
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on September 19, 2010, 11:19:04 AM
Must be because your a walnut
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Jason Goldsack on September 19, 2010, 11:59:13 AM

Quote from: POLARACO
Must be because your a walnut

LOL

Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Rich on September 19, 2010, 09:32:47 PM
And my shell has cracked.........(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on September 20, 2010, 09:28:46 AM
Steve, I have been thinking about the cam profile and an issue another guy is having with high lift cam in a big block. It was and is an oversight on my part that we may have gotten the lift too great for that strong bottom end you were really looking for, basing this on the ramp speed of the roller cams. In short, it appears that the speed of the ramp with the lift, even though it is a short duration cam, part of the high vacuum signal is being lost from too much lift. I am afraid I have turned around and given you some bad information not from my lack of knowledge, but from my lack of proper application. You wouldn't by chance have a set of 1.5 rockers instead of the 1.6 rockers you have on her now? I think it would be an increase of 2inches of vacuum, which equates to more torque. Talk to me about it a bit.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on September 20, 2010, 10:08:16 AM
I'm using the stock rockers.  I forget if they are 1.5 or 1.6.  I'll find out though
 
When I ordered the cam, I specifically went over the specs with Hughes.  That's one of the reasons they gave me a 3* advanced cam.
 
If anyone knows Magnums, it's them.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on September 20, 2010, 10:43:00 AM
Well, yeah, there's that, but they also just kind of went with a similar cam profile and increased the lift and bleed off a little bit of the cylinder pressure like a stock cam, ro radicalness to its potential really bred into the grind itself. Dropping the lift from .509 with the 1.6 rockers to .477 with 1.5 will increase vacuum, which even with the short duration may be a very viable low end torque increaser over what it is now.  I forget how fast the ramps are in comparison to the flat tappet cams it isn't even funny.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on September 20, 2010, 11:52:16 AM
They are 1.5's
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on September 20, 2010, 12:59:38 PM
OK, at least that isn't an issue. Did you finally get the injectors and pressure figured out?

Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on September 20, 2010, 01:21:36 PM
Quote from: dana44
OK, at least that isn't an issue. Did you finally get the injectors and pressure figured out?
 
Sure I did.  74 Intrepid 3.3 fuel regulator and the correct injectors.  I'm still putzing with the static timing 
 

[color=#ccff00 size=4]POST JUMPER!  POST JUMPER!  POST JUMPER![/color]
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on September 20, 2010, 07:14:32 PM
POST JUMPER?  I was trying to determine why you were still screwing with it, I haven't missed a post on here from the beginning!
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on September 20, 2010, 07:25:24 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on September 20, 2010, 07:29:31 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
You sleeping on the job again, or what?
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on September 20, 2010, 07:59:32 PM
Nah  Trying to find a 12,000 package FedEx lost.  This is why I don't have a FedEx account.  Every thing I ever have shipped buy them turns into a nightmare.
 
I bumped the timing today about 4 degrees.  (Eyeballed the disty)  I can't tell yet because I have the rear bumper off, but it sure starts allot sharper.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: glen cyr on September 27, 2010, 01:51:31 PM
Quote from: POLARACO
They are 1.5's
  The LA engines are 1.5's and the magnums are 1.6 from the factory. Hughes probably took that in to account when they ground the cam and i'm wondering if when they quote the lift,it is based on the 1.6 ratio. You might have to look at your cam card.
 
Glen
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on September 27, 2010, 02:28:06 PM
Some how I knew they were 1.6's, but at the moment I couldn't remember, so I called my resident Magnum guy and he said 1.5's.  WTH?
 
The timing boost I did last week, did wonders.  I didn't even start the car until yesterday.  But there was an immediate improvement.  I need to clear the pooter and drive it again now.
 
Anyway, here is the cam card. . .  It was on page 5
 
Thanks Glenn. . .we're down to fine tuning
 
POLARACO2010-09-27 19:30:27
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on September 27, 2010, 07:24:02 PM
Not sure how you got 1.5s given the Magnum engine itself. This might be a valve cover removal and dial indicator measurement. The shorter lift statistically will give more bottom end grunt (based on each and every time bigger rockers are added, more top end is gained at the expense of a slight loss of low end torque). Kind of thinking out loud that the higher lift with the shorter duration is still lifting so quickly that in a way it is still working like a larger duration cam (which is difficult to do with a flat tappet cam,  but not a roller cam).
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on September 27, 2010, 08:02:08 PM
It has to be 1.6 rockers.  Glenn is right.  I'm using the factory rockers and it definitely a magnum.
 
I understand what you are saying, but how does that effect the economy?
 
I'll tell you what I experienced. . .
With the new timing settings, there is definitely more power.  However, I tried a WOT power brake and all it does is push the car along.  The front brakes won't hold it.  The tires on it grip extremely well, and I think the 3.23 sure-grip might have something to do with it.   They feel like they want to break loose, but won't.   Further, there are a few 5% hills around here, a couple of miles long.  I go right up them in OD lockup, and can actually gain speed.  In one case, I was doing that at 45 MPH.  We know it's harder to do this at lower speeds than at higher speeds.
 
Found a fuel leak at the tank on the return line and repaired that.  Looked like it's been leaking for a while.  So now I'll be able to get an even better MPG reading.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on September 27, 2010, 08:31:41 PM
Sorry Ed
 
There are no 1.5 rockers for the Magnum.  I can upgrade to rollers or to a 1.7 ratio,also in roller.  I really think the 1.7's would not be a good choice for me.
 
However, I have been thinnking about installing these.  I have to replace the push rods anyway because I think the intake rods may be slightly bent.  If you recall, I bent all the exhaust rods.  They are a bit noisey.
 
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-1425-KIT/Application/?query=Engine+Size%7c5.9L%2f360 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-1425-KIT/Application/?query=Engine+Size%7c5.9L%2f360)
 
According with what I am reading, I can get an additional 35 to 40 HP by just going to steel rollers.  Makes sense.  When I did all this, all I gained was about 5 HP.  235 HP and 425 #.  Just like a diesel.
 
It does have sufficient bottom end.  The good thing is, all the power goes to the ground.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on September 28, 2010, 09:33:40 AM
I would stick with the 1.6 rockers, because like you say, it does have the torque you wanted, higher lift yet would raise the rpm for the torque, not lower it. I wouldn't have a problem with roller rockers though, they are a lot easier on the valvetrain.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on October 01, 2010, 02:32:05 PM
Got my Roller Rockers.  Going to try to get them in Sunday
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on October 02, 2010, 12:56:00 PM
I love it! 
 
I put one bank in so far. . .  Going to be too dark to work on the other bank.  But I drove it.  Felt the difference immediately!  Tomorrow I 'll do the right bank.  I have to go back in and tweak the adjustments on the left bank.  My SK socket is a tad too thick to get it done accurately.  It gets jamed in the rocker.  Someone oppsed on the design.
 
WeeBee, wait until you drive it now!  Car is getting close to being completely done.
 
Oh yeah, I don't remember if I mentioned this. . .   The timing tweak did wonders.  I'll see how it is on fuel for a while now.  I drove it all over today and the gas gauge didn't budge.  Unlike a few weeks ago
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on October 02, 2010, 09:43:35 PM
Sounds good. You do the zero lash stuff, not the zero lash and then 3/4 turn or whatever, right?
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on October 02, 2010, 09:57:42 PM
Explain Ed.
 
They say to bring the nut down until the lash is gone.  It was hard with the SK socket, but I stopped and got a Craftsman which looks to have a slightly thinner wall.  The SK kept getting stuck in the rocker.  Took more time to get the socket out of each rocker than it did to adjust all 8.
 
I'll readjust tomorrow afternoon.  But before I fo that, let me hear what you have to say
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on October 03, 2010, 07:18:00 PM
When my mentor, a totally brilliant engineer and inventor, taught me the art of flow, tuning, designing, you name it, I stopped breaking tools, parts, hammers, shovels, animals, and actually started learing what was going on (great porter, we experimented a whole lot), there was one thing we learned about valve adjusting and lifter preloads. Non-adjustable rockers have a preset of approximately .050 into the lifter plunger to allow for slop through all 16 lifters, the bleed hole is designed to bleed down just enough to prevent them from pumping up that extra .050 until you reach 5200-5300rpm in stock application, which is where most Mopar lifters start floating the valves. When you start getting into the adjustable rockers, all the books tell you how to take the lash (where there is no play between the lifter plungerat the top of its snapring before the spring starts to compress, through the pushrod, across the rocker arm and then to the top of the valve tip)[description for the benefits of other than yourself Steve]. If you stop right here, you will prevent the top rpm, that 5200-5300rpm point, from automatically floating the valves and now the valve spring itself is going to float if it is overrevved. Additionally, to help with the valve float due to the lifter pumping up is the high performance anti-pump-up lifter. These lifters look pretty stock except the bleed hole is slightly larger so higher volume oil pump pressure/volume and higher rpm doesn't increase inside the lifter.
So, by taking the lifter so it is at zero lash at the top of the lifter, it will not pump up or float due to higher rpm, she will run smoother even if debris gets into the lifter and lets it retain oil pressure and extends the lifter bore that extra .050 (that's the 1/2 to 3/4 turn after zero lash), and in the event of valve touch to piston, you have this extra amount inside the lifter body that can give under pressure that will be that much closer to bottoming out if the pre-load is already taken up. It also prevents excess pressure against the cam, lifter, pushrod, valve tip and spring compression which is totally unnecessary, just extra friction that is set at around 35-70psi, and we all know that zero pressure against two objects, in this case is cam bearings, cam, lifter, pushrod tips, rocker times three, valve tip, valve spring, all adds up to excess force and friction, thus a loss of HP/torque due to this extra friction. If reduced to zero lash or near zero clearance, it is simple gravity weight on the objects that is the frictional weight, not the preset .050 pressure multiplied by the obove objects forced to scrape each other (all these things times 16 except cam bearings, which is times five), which reduces wear above all.
 
dana442010-10-04 00:22:06
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on October 03, 2010, 09:03:07 PM
I understand all that, but you didn't give me a clear answer.  I think. . . .
 
So are you saying to take the lash out and add 3/4 of a turn, or subtract?
 
Adjusting these is a problem.  I spend more time detting the socket out of the rocker than adjusting it.  If I only go 1/2 way down, it isn't so bad.  Thye need an extra 15 or 20K additional clearence to do it right.  I can't feel the rocker as I pull it down.  And the socket has a tendency to spin the rocker as well.  I'm going to put the craftsman socket in the lathe and take off the plating.  That should do it.
 
I have a little sputter at around 1500 in lower gears. .  .  I may have one a bit too tight now.
 
I wrote to Comp and whinned about the lousey design.  The SK, Snap On and Craftsman sockets all did the same thing.  The craftsman was the best of the bunch.  I told Comp you can't get a good adjustment with this condition and it needs to be fixed in the furture.
 
But, I have a solution on a 5 dollar socket
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on October 04, 2010, 08:56:01 PM
STEVE, take the lash down to zero AND STOP. This is zero lash, no extra compression or extra quarter turn or anything, but zero.

Back off the swedge nut, turn the bolt gently while lifting up and down on the valve end of the rocker until it all the sudden stops moving any, then lock the swedge nut down and you are done. NO EXTRA COMPRESSION OF THE PUSHROD INTO THE LIFTER.
 
The key is zero lash, otherwise I would have said take it to zero lash and then 3/4 turn extra.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on October 04, 2010, 09:08:28 PM
Easier said than done.  That's what I was talking about with the socket.  I can't feel the rockers with the socket in there and it's a Bi**** to get it out.
 
When I turn the socket and knock 25 or 30K off of it, then I should be able to do it.  As it is I think I have one slightly too tight as I have a slight miss or stutter at 1500.  I'll get back into it later in the week.  What you described is exactly what I was trying to acomplish..
 
They're pretty quiet right now, but that's not saying they don't need to be done again.  I either have one too tight or too loose.  The way it idles, I think there is one too loose.  But it's a good thing to do them after they have a few miles on them anyway.  I hate tearing into this again.  Have to move too much crap out of the way.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on October 28, 2010, 07:28:57 AM
Thought I would let you know the results. . .
 
Since I know crap about adjusting valves on studs, I asked my buddy, TJ, to do them for me while I was gone.  He's the one with the proper scanner for this beast too.
 
He set the valves, and reset the timing back about 5 degrees.  I was at 7* advanced when it should be TDC.  Found a bad MAP sensor which was fooling everyone, (Except me) it was showing 9" when I know that motor is making 14+.  Turns out I had two rockers too tight, which brought the actual vacuume.  They were too tight because the lifters are leaking down.  Something I need to work on I guess.  Hey Ed!  Any ideas on how I can fix those lifters in the car?  These don't come out without removing the heads.
 
Anyway, since Leaburn drove it, it's now chirping the tires easily.  NOW I can find out about the MPG.  It feels like what I expected to get from the build.  It just took the right equipment
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on October 28, 2010, 01:49:03 PM
By the way, I forgot to mention the new rockers straightened out the push rods too.  They improved the geometry to almost perfect.
 
Car runs more like I expected it too now
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Jason Goldsack on October 28, 2010, 01:53:11 PM
Now you need a set of 4.30's in the rear and it will really chirp the tires..LOL

Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on October 28, 2010, 02:39:26 PM
I have 323's.  I went down from 255's.  That rear, while good, was noisey.  I'm cruising at 70 MPH at 1650 now.  I'm just below the sweet spot.  Motor isn't even working hard.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on October 28, 2010, 10:20:47 PM
This is why we don't over tighten the rockers. Yes, it takes a little bit of finesse to get them right and after that, great. A lifter bleeding down is only going to last about ten seconds after a long cool-down/overnight relaxation of the engine, preloading the lifters by the book pushes the plunger down and actually blocks the filler hole from the oil gallery and that doesn't help anything at all as far as noise goes.
 
Lifters will come out by removing the intake manifold itself and loosening the rockers themselves. You could try to run a can of engine cleaner (Seafoam, Engine Restore, name your favorite brand of engine cleaner here), or, you may have one grade too thin (or thick) of oil in her. The newer engines  run clearances of tens of thousandths, the ones we are more familiar with run clearances of a couple thousandths on a good day, so check the recommended oil quality you are using.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on October 29, 2010, 06:26:15 AM
Thanks Ed.
 
The oil grade doesn't seem to matter.  I was running 15/30 for breakin and now running 10/40.  Nothing has changed.
 
I was asking about trying to clean these up internally because these lifters don't come out without taking the head off. 
 
Remember, this is a brand new engine.  there's no crud in there and in 3000 miles, the oil has been changed 4 times.
 
I thought about the engine flush, but doubt that is going to do much.  I was wondering if there was something else that might help open up the lifter.
 
Yeah it only lasts a few seconds.  But on a 4000 engine, it's annoying
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on October 29, 2010, 06:30:49 AM
So I take it the lifters do quiet down after a short period of time, it is just inital start-up that they tap, right? I know it is frustrating, but you just started talking about them doing this, just trying to verify it is something that just started?
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on October 29, 2010, 09:26:25 AM
Yup
 
Sometimes when hot after 1/2 and hour and mostly when cold.  There there are times they don't do it at all
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on October 29, 2010, 07:41:47 PM
Roller lifters are usually pretty quiet. There seems to be an inconsistency in the pattern of the lifters being noisy from lack of oil itself (cold/hot timeframe), which would be more of an indicaiton of something floating around that isn't supposed to be floating around. 10/40 and 15/30 should both be heavy enough to prevent noise in this pattern. Lifters may be the last item that gets oil pressure, which is usually why they rattle to start and then quiet down, even with low oil, then remain that way for a while.  On the other hand and thinking about it now, these lifters have pushrods which are hollow, so, too large a hole could bleed them down faster, which isn't very likely, so we are back to guessing lifter, rocker, or injector actually making the noise, and I would remove the injector from the list because you can tell that tone from the rocker/lifter noise.  Lifter guideplate rattle?
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on October 30, 2010, 04:56:53 AM
Thanks Ed.  I'm thinking there is something in them causing the relief to stay open.  I guess they stay quiet, depending on where the engine is sitting when it stops.  I just want to find a way to get them straightened out without taking them apart.  That's a motor teardown!
 
No on the guide plate,  They're not even close to them anymore.  The new rockers actually wore a slot into the head gasket from straightening the geometry out.  Nah that's not it either.  They were rattling before I did the rockers.  been doing it since start #1
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on October 30, 2010, 11:17:26 AM
There's gotta be some kind of sticking with clearances then. I remember this engine had some water damage when you got it and rebuilt, did you actually do anything to the lifters themselves or did you just wash them and install them? Remember what I said about the new engine clearances being so much tighter, it would take something the size measured in microns to make the inside stick to the housing to make them bleed down vice that .001 clearance of the older designs, which is why such thinner oils can run in them without damage.  It does make me wonder what is really going on since it is doing it after warming up vice stopping once pressure has built up, which is the norm.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on October 30, 2010, 02:14:01 PM
Those are new lifters.  Comps
 
The water damage was mostly confined to the cylinders, it was several.  2 lifters had pretty bad water damage, and several more had minor.  all the lifter bores were cleaned and wire brushed, thwen honed with a brake hone.  Then the oil galeries were flushed.  After the block came back, I used my fluid pressure tank and flush the oil galleries with lacqure thinner at high pressure, both before and after the block went to the shop.  So I doubt there was any dirt in the galleries.  But that doesn't mean something still didn't break loose and got into the lifter...
 
I haven't taken it on a very long trip yet.  That may make them loosen up.
 
Irronically, the over tight valves were on the leakers.  Enough to lose 4" of vacuum
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on October 30, 2010, 07:04:06 PM
You might give Comp a call and see what they say.  Possibly they have had other complaints or know of a problem and/or cure for the situation. The only thing I can think of for a lifter to go flat and start tapping after the engine is warm is not enough pressure, because there really isn't any other reason once the lifter is pumped up, right??

 
dana442010-10-31 00:06:25
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on October 30, 2010, 07:23:02 PM
You have it backwards ED.  They rattle when cold.  The tech guy at Comp asked about the springs too, but we rulled them out.  After a few seconds, they quiet uo.  Sometimes they rattle, sometimes they don't
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on October 31, 2010, 10:16:12 AM
If they are only rattling when cold or after sitting for a while, this is kind of normal, I thought you said they were rattling after she warmed up for half an hour or so. I say this is kind of normal for an anti-pump up lifter, the ability to bleed off a little pressure when there isn't constant pressure to them. It is kind of annoying, a morning couple of seconds is a normal thing, after warming up, it isn't.  I imagine the ones that are rattling are the ones the springs are pressing against and able to overcome the oil inside to bleed down when sitting, especially when you are talking about up to 300lb pressure springs open, or even 250lb springs, which I could understand, able to overcome that pressure after a few seconds. Regular springs on non-roller cams are around 125-150lbs closed, 175-225lbs full open, so it is a little extra pressure making them just that much more pressure during an open valve while sitting (they all can't be closed at the same time after all).
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on October 31, 2010, 06:25:02 PM
Then why only sometimes?
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on October 31, 2010, 08:07:26 PM
Just like the 727 leakdown, some times are more severe than others, so it may be something to do with the location of the lifters and ability to bleed down. An engine does not stop in exactly the same piston to TDC location each time, so maybe that has something to do with it.  If you could put number one at TDC each time you stopped and this never happens again great, but if the same thing happens occasionally, well, what can I say?
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on March 20, 2011, 09:42:47 PM
Well, I finally got back on Polaraco
 
Found an intake leak.  TJ and I realized we needed to over tighten  the intake.  Bummer.  But it stopped the vacuum leaks and probably the coolant loss I had.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on June 07, 2011, 07:33:28 PM


I can easily thake them out as I used strap clamps.  I needed them for state inspection anyway.  I mean it's never been inspected in 4 years and as a daily, it's supposed to be.  Uh Huh. . .I bad  45,000 miles and not one cop has questioned it.  Even when driving through check points.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on June 07, 2011, 07:37:19 PM
Now, didn't I swear the higher compression and cheaper gas was very plausible when the combustion chamber is done properly? Glad to hear you finally got a few more bugs worked out of her. A few here a few there, they all come to an end when you actually get to them, huh?
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on June 07, 2011, 08:11:02 PM


Yeah, but delibrately creating back pressure?  I realize some of the gasses stay in the cylinders like this.  There are therorys that some back pressure makes an engine more efficient
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: firedome on June 08, 2011, 04:23:42 AM
I know in the old days correct back pressure was said to be important
to prevent valve burning, not sure it it holds true in more modern
engines tho.

Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on June 08, 2011, 09:55:52 AM
Steve, you have to remember that the sensors themselves require a certain temp to function and the computer is out of calibration if not at these certain temps. One easy way to do this is to simply slow down the flow rate out the exhaust (ported heads do flow better), so it was a matter of getting the engine to operate in the temp range to operate correctly. One could have been a higher temp thermostat to slow the water flow down, another is a piece of cardboard in front of the radiator to raise the temp. As a big side note, the use of a carburetor would be excellent in this case, allowing the engine to run as cool as possible and produce more power at the same time. If adjusting the exhaust to slow down and basically countersink using the exhaust instead of the water temp itself, well, yeah, not really my favorite way to do it, but oh well.
 
Now, a full shakedown of performance and mileage is in order. No rush, at your convenience, I know you have a lot going on.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on June 08, 2011, 12:54:01 PM


By the way Lea. . .That flat spot you were complaining about is gone since I put the converters in too.  Go figure
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on June 08, 2011, 01:32:05 PM
Things are probably OK for now, I can understand the transmission shifting and stuff, but you know there is a little kit to allow the tranny shifting without a whole puter to do it, right? Mopar is easy, along with the 700R4, it is the phord that is complex.
 
I would figure the flat spot you noted was because the flow was too fast and the throttle position to O2 sensor was too slow, making it react slower and thus a flat spot.
 
I would figure a truck or van OBD2 PCM would have the fewest add-on body computers to deal with, but my comment about the carb was the fact engines can handle bigger swings in changes than the computer engines and can be a lot more tolerant overall. On the other side of that, it is hard to beat the ease in starting and cold start of an injected engine. The aftermarket setup you showed before is kind of going backwards because it is the throttle body injection setup, which is OK for an older carb'd engine upgrade, but after thinking about it this long, why go from individual port injection to a fake carb injection setup?
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on June 08, 2011, 01:36:26 PM


The TBI I was talking about was for the Diamond.  The system I am talking about now is MPI.  Not backwards at all.  It's programable with a complete harness
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on June 08, 2011, 01:44:40 PM
OK, I missed that, Blue Diamond will do just fine with the aftermarket setup because is it a carbureted intake to begin with and that is what the system is designed to replace, a carb.
 
I got my '95 Dakota running and all that, and compared to some of them, the wiring isn't that bad. The engine harness itself is pretty simple and would be an easier swap even though it is OBD1, not OBD2, which is '96 and above.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: firedome on June 09, 2011, 04:14:25 AM

To me the whole advantage of running a '60s or early 70s car is the
lack of computers, EFI and all that junk. Some maintain that no EFI has
the direct response of a properly set up carb, I dunno, but I sure do
like the simplicity and lack of electronics, and mpg doesn't matter
that much if you're not commuting 30+ mi every  day. One upgrade I
do like is Pertronix, 'cause it's simpler that what it replaces. 
I do confess to being something of a throwback in general, however,
with my '50s house, '50s stove, '60s WE phones, '50s tube stereos and
mostly old cars, all of which I can still work on and are made to be
repaired.  The new car is worked on by the dealer. My motto is
KISS!  If Polaraco were mine, it'd be back to the  750 Edy!(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif)
firedome2011-06-09 09:16:03
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Jason Goldsack on June 09, 2011, 06:48:13 AM
I like the idea of Fuel Injection.. My '65 will be going that direct when I can afford it..





Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on June 09, 2011, 07:51:10 AM
Firedome, I am with you about 90 percent. I have a cell phone because my daughter has a big plan and she wanted to be able to contact the wife, sister,, and myself when she wanted to, we are separated by 350 miles. I won't buy a new car these days, I will fix old. I like the convenience of the EFI and roller cams (don't forget roller cams), and the systems aren't that hard to really set up, the newer ones just have so gosh darn extra stuff to them it isn't funny, it all ties together. My buddy got a Lightning engine and transmission without the truck, along with the wiring and smog stuff. His harness for a 2001 filled a garbage can and a half, and is about 55 pounds of wiring and connectors. My Dakota, '95, including the whole dash and headlight assembly comes in at seven pounds, and they both do the same thing! Forget that, a simple timing, injector and sensor setup and computer (to control that would be nice), and nothing else would be really great. His, we had to buy software to get past the security system so he could get it running without squirting gas into it. We have some smog/gas tank purge valve stuff that has to be installed/set up to function properly.
 
Pertronics is good, I have Unilite by Mallory, which is the original in the distributor electronic ignition that didn't look like it. What with the way electronics get so inexpensive, I am still surprised an EFI system, aftermarket, isn't less than $1000 complete. Some day.
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Steve on June 09, 2011, 11:34:56 AM


It's supposed to give you 30% more HP and Torque
Title: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
Post by: Guests on June 09, 2011, 12:08:17 PM
Yes, and this is another reason why porting an intake and heads improves the flow, which equates to better hp and torque each and every time, the EFI does it through regulating the fuel better, but most of that hp and torque is peak, not average, which the porting will do better.