MoparFins

Techical Discussions => Tech- - Engine => Topic started by: Jason Goldsack on September 11, 2009, 10:24:54 AM

Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Jason Goldsack on September 11, 2009, 10:24:54 AM
Does anyone here run aftermarket aluminum heads on there C..  nthis would not be in a racing engine.. but a mild or stock engine that I`m look for info on.

What brand of heads do you run, did you notice the difference in performance.. and how much?


Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Snotty on September 11, 2009, 10:40:32 AM
I do not.  However, when we built the 401 AMC, my good buddy who races told me that Aluminum heads would be a waste of money on a motor that we were not intending on racing.  Compared to $1,500 a piece, he said a good valve job and porting would be a much better altrernative and would be a lot less money.
 
But, to answer your question, one of the writers in a magazine I recently read suggested using the Edelbrock heads on a 440 street car as the best option of cost and performance.  The letter writer was asking the same question as you.
Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Stan Paralikis on September 11, 2009, 10:58:15 AM
Quote from: Snotty
I do not.  However....



 
In 101% agreement.
$2000 aluminum heads designed for 500+ HP is absurd when all you're doing is going to the local car show on Sat. night.
Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Stitcherbob on September 11, 2009, 11:09:58 AM
A lot of guys run the 440Source heads.....but they are made in China and can have issues with quality control.... though $899/pr  fully assembled is a pretty good deal!

http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/quest/TOTALED_440.html (http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/quest/TOTALED_440.html)

http://www.440source.com/heads.htm (http://www.440source.com/)






Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Jason Goldsack on September 11, 2009, 01:12:52 PM
Maybe I should get out the factory 516's out of the backroom and port them, add hardened valve seats and bigger exhaust valves. I have rebuilt 452's on the old girl right now.

Any luck with the MP porting templates? Any idea how much it is to put in hardened valve seats?


Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Stan Paralikis on September 11, 2009, 02:37:24 PM
[/QUOTE]

ALL heads are cast in China now.  ALL.  No matter who you get them from.
AND, literally every head is cast by just 2-3 foundries.  So heads cast at any particular foundry may be distributed by many companies under their own name.
 
NOW, MOST of the heads are MACHINED over there, too. Some are machined here.  And the obvious way to know where they were final machined is the PRICE.
No way  can you find fully assembled heads, machined and assembled in the USA for under $1500+.
 
1 out of 5 sets of heads from 440 is not to spec.
Would I buy heads from 440?  Tempting but I'd go straight to Edelbrock...
 
 
Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Stan Paralikis on September 11, 2009, 02:42:20 PM
OH, BTW, it's too easy to strip threads on the aluminum heads.
Aluminum has No performance adwantage.
Aluminum heads play havoc with proper tensioning of bolts ("OOPS!  %^$% I stripped the exhaust manifold stud." )
Their only advantage is weight savings.  But on a car that is never raced? C'mon, now.....
Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Jason Goldsack on September 11, 2009, 03:10:30 PM
Weight saving also effects handling..

Last week when I pulled the lightweight M-1 Single plane off of my BB Aspen and replaced it with a factory 4 barrel intake.. the weight difference was dramatic.

Now imagine. Aluminum intake, aluminum heads, aluminum water pump, tube Sub Frame, coil over in stead of torsion bars .. etc. Can you imagine the difference the driving experience would be?

My car is named Eileen for a good reason .. I lean to the left and I lean to the right in corners.. I want to fix that also..

Any kind of weight savings would help a C considerably.




Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Leaburn Patey on September 11, 2009, 06:26:24 PM
Why do all that work on the small valved 516's whan you already have a good breathing set of 452's--which already have hardened valve seats and bigger valves??
IMHO,work the 452's. Economical,more bang for the buck.
 
Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Stitcherbob on September 11, 2009, 07:07:48 PM
the 440Source heads are heli-coiled and blind exhaust bolt holes so no coolant escapes....but I would talk to some people who run them and find out about that 1 in 5 chance they are mis- machined....

Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Dan Cluley on September 11, 2009, 09:23:42 PM
I'm with CBarge, what's wrong with the 452s?
 
 
Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Jason Goldsack on September 12, 2009, 02:58:05 AM
Compression...

Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Jason Goldsack on September 12, 2009, 03:03:16 AM
I was going to get the bigger exhaust valve put in... with the limited amount of driving i do with the car.. would I really need to put the hardened seats in anyways?

Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Rich on September 12, 2009, 06:19:21 AM


Don't want to waste your time or money on those old 516's-(small ports, small valves) it will cost $600-800 to get them to where the 452's are now-- head work is VERY expensive.

Also, with today's witches brew that they call fuel you don't need higher compression, the 9 to 1 that you've got  is plenty.  With a little 361, aluminum heads would be a waste of money- it's just too small to need the kind of airflow you get with the aluminum heads. I wouldn't put them on a 383 either, as the 906-346-452 heads (when cleaned up with blended bowls) are all it needs. Save the aluminum heads for the 440's and even bigger stroker motors that need the added flow.

krautmaster2009-09-12 12:07:26
Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Jason Goldsack on September 12, 2009, 07:00:36 AM
Even with the closed chamber heads.. the compression would only be 9.5 ( I'm sure than was the factory compression for this engine) which would be fine for pump gas.




Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Tom Dawson on September 12, 2009, 10:33:33 AM
I have to disagree with Stan on this one-aluminium heads disperse heat faster-thus allowing you to run atleast one full commpression point higher than cast iron heads.
So you could get away with going to 10 or 11 to 1 where with the iron 9.5 would be the most you could use before detonation.
Tom
Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Stan Paralikis on September 12, 2009, 01:41:27 PM
Quote from: furyman67
I have to disagree with Stan on this one-aluminium heads disperse heat faster-thus allowing you...
Good point! (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Dan Cluley on September 12, 2009, 11:32:03 PM
Quote from: 1965Windsor361
Compression...
 
Fair enough.
 
In my case I see that as an advantage.  After switching to the 452's mine runs fine on mid grade gas saving a couple of bucks per tank.
 
I think it comes down to what sort of use you plan to get from the car.
Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Jason Goldsack on September 13, 2009, 07:11:26 AM
Well.... I'm not sure yet..

Now that my Big Block Aspen is gone :( I want a little more pep...

I think it's time to play a little. My buddy went 13.90's with his 1970 Fury with a 440 6 pack, 4.56 gears and 4000 converter.. I'm not looking for that.. but I would like to get in the low 15's .. the car has run 16.0 with 3.23 and a stock intake with the 452's

I'm going all around performance, maybe swap out the 383 magnum cam for something a little bigger, swap in some 3.55 gears, ported heads, swap bars front and rear, new springs in the rear.

I have gone 12's with the 452's on my 40 in my old Aspen.. so I do know they flow well ( but they were hogged out)

I'm just not sure what I want to do yet. I do know that the tranny will need a rebuild soon.. and that is top of my list.

I want to build an overall package that handles better but still has some pep. It would be a pain to find another BB with the bosses needed to fit my 1965 mounts.

I'm also looking for a winter project and porting the 516's sounds like it could keep me busy.



Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Stitcherbob on September 13, 2009, 08:55:00 AM

Quote from: 1965Windsor361
Well.... I'm not sure yet..

Now that my Big Block Aspen is gone :( I want a little more pep...





may I suggest you change your username to 1965Windsorstroker400,  Jason? (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)

Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Rich on September 13, 2009, 09:30:44 AM
 I have been scrounging around in my old engine building books trying to remember why big port heads on a little engine don't work well (anyone remember the Ford Boss 302 with the huge port heads? It was useless on the street because it had no torque until 4,500 rpm)

 The best explanation I could find was in Andy Finkbeiners book "How to build max-performance mopar big blocks". He shows the "McFarland Formula" (RPM=cylinder head cross section area X 88200/Cylinder volume)  which basically gives the relationship between port cross section area and the RPM where the peak torque will occur. (McFarland was the head of R&D at Edelbrock)

 Using this formula, a 360 cubic inch engine with stock Mopar size ports will have a torque peak at 5,500RPM. With Max Wedge size ports that peak goes up to 6,900rpm. For comparison a 440 will peak at 4,600 with standard heads and 5,800 with Max Wedge heads. So what this means is, unless you want to make an all out drag racing engine that runs at ultra high rpm, you should leave the stock port size heads on it. Save the aluminum ones for the big 440's and strokers.
Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Stan Paralikis on September 13, 2009, 12:55:52 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)
Somebody FINALLY gets it.
Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Jason Goldsack on September 13, 2009, 01:50:18 PM
But the 516 was stock on the 361.. they are the original heads..

I'm not talking about hogging them out.. just a nice port and bowl cleaning.. But gain back the compression i lost going to the open chamber head.

Maybe even using the MP templates.


Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Leaburn Patey on September 13, 2009, 02:56:02 PM
Just back cut the valves,open up the bowls a bit.
Simple and effective--especially on a set of 452's.
CBarge2009-09-13 19:56:57
Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Jason Goldsack on September 13, 2009, 02:59:25 PM

[/QUOTE]
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)



Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Rich on September 13, 2009, 06:05:27 PM








The problem with the 516's , besides the small exhaust valves is the port roofs are low, the rest of the port is too curved, and the valve guide boss extends far into the port, and the intake charge stalls at high lifts because it can't make the tight curve where it opens into the seat. They don't flow all that well unless you spend crazy money having a pro port them for you.l

 346/452's offer a dramatic improvement in flow - the ports were flattened out and a "Huber" hump was added to the outside wall/floor creating a venturi effect that raises the velocity of the incoming mixture with no stalling at high valve lifts. This also mixes the incoming charge better reducing pollution (specifically the oxzides of nitrogen). Just adding a three angle valve job to a stock set of these will make them outflow hand ported 516's with big 2.14"/1.81" valves.  If you blend the bowls and add big valves you've got all the flow you'll ever need for a streetable  361-383.
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/171/516s.jpg)


(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/171/346.jpg)




krautmaster2009-09-14 18:46:49
Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Snotty on September 14, 2009, 11:34:43 AM
Does the above picture illustrate the difference between closed and open-chamber heads?  If so, I finally get that expression.
Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Rich on September 14, 2009, 01:44:45 PM
Yes it does!!

Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Jason Goldsack on September 14, 2009, 03:11:33 PM
it doesn't look like anything that my Dremel can't fix..

Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Leaburn Patey on September 14, 2009, 03:58:32 PM
Jason with his dremel..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLm2VPC_ois&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLm2VPC_ois&feature=related)
Title: Aluminum Heads
Post by: Jason Goldsack on September 14, 2009, 04:05:31 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)