MoparFins

Techical Discussions => Tech- - FUEL => Topic started by: attkrlufy on June 09, 2009, 04:10:55 AM

Title: Intake stuck
Post by: attkrlufy on June 09, 2009, 04:10:55 AM
So here's what I've been up to lately:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2428/3610870554_381ff61ab8.jpg)


But I've hit a wall.  I've removed all the side bolts on the intake but I can't get it to lift off the engine.

Anyone have this problem before?  How did you get the intake off?

Also, while we're on the subject of intakes - what's up with the stuff in mine:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2454/3610058981_c52f8fbf2a.jpg)

I've never seen one of those brass-thinggys inside an intake before (not like I've looked inside many intakes, though.).  What does it do?  And does that hole on the driver's side opening mean I'm missing a brass thinggy?  This is a 1979 360 w/ thermoquad set-up, BTW.














Title: Intake stuck
Post by: Brian on June 09, 2009, 08:19:46 AM
Well the intakes can get a little stick from being torqued down for so many years.  Whack the front of the intake with a hammer and see if it pops loose, or you can try and wedge in a small pry bar or big screwdriver near the front conners of the intake, by the head and pry it up and loose.   My take some muscle but it will come off.(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
 
As for the things in your intake, these are part of the EGR system.  When the EGR opens up it allows exhaust gasses from the crossover to flow up into the intake manifold.  Can't recall why and what it does to the fuel charge.
 
 
Title: Intake stuck
Post by: Butch Houghton on June 09, 2009, 08:20:11 AM
Those are Floor jets for the EGR system,  normal on a late  70's.    And no there isn't a pipe plug that fits!   They're a strange thread so just leave em'.   If you were to block off the EGR on the intake they won't do anything anymore.  If you have to leave the EGR working for emissions just make sure they're cleaned out.   

If you're absolutely sure you have all the bolts out ( double check! ) then the intake is just stuck by the old gaskets.     Use a small Screwdriver or putty knife & go under it in a few places to break the "sucktion " & it'll  come off.  

Since you're there this is a good time for at least vale seals & a timing set if you haven't done that yet.   You can do the seal on the motor with the right tool,  local parts house might have a rental you can use.   I did this years ago with an Aspen we got with about 125K & smoking a bit out of one side.   As soon as I got it home tore the 318 down to the shortblock in the car,  hand-lapped the valves & stuck new seals on( I have a Vavlespring compressor ) cleaned everything & put a timing set in & buttoned it up,   car  never used any oil or smoked after that & we ran it to close to 200K & not even 100.00 to do at the time.

Course you could pull the heads & have them done correctly too with new guides if needed & seals & a real valvejob.    All in how far you wanna go at the time.   Course then you might as well do the shortblock too!   LOL!  IT NEVER ENDS! 

I realize if you've basically got a decent running engine most don't want to go that far.   The seals are usually toast by 100K as well as the timing chain/gears....just cheap insurance.

Butch


Title: Intake stuck
Post by: attkrlufy on June 09, 2009, 03:52:04 PM


Quote from: HemiFury
Since you're there this is a good time for at least vale seals & a timing set if you haven't done that yet.
What's this "timing set" thing you speak of, exactly?  When the water pump comes out, access to the timing chain cover will be easy......after all, it's right there.  DARN IT.  Now I'm considering adding it to "the list" and I don't even know what it is.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif)

So this "timing set" - is this something I can do with basic tools and basic car repair knowledge?  Are you talking about doing something with the timing of the engine?

Quote from: HemiFury
Course you could pull the heads & have them done correctly too with new guides if needed & seals & a real valvejob.  Course then you might as well do the shortblock too!   LOL!  IT NEVER ENDS!
TELL me about it.  This started as a simple radiator removal, new hoses and carb swap.  But I keep rationalizing doing more and more work because "Well, I'm already there....might as well do [fill-in-the-blank], too."

Oh well, I've always wanted to learn how to do this stuff..........and I sure am learning a lot.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif)
attkrlufy2009-06-09 20:52:28
Title: Intake stuck
Post by: Butch Houghton on June 10, 2009, 07:42:38 AM
Sorry.....Timing set = Timing chain & gears.

Yep,  soon as you get the pulley & damper they're right there behind the timing cover.
Cheap too,   summit Double roller....

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G6603/

Knowing how the factory nylon-coated gears can fail it's a good idea.     If the timing slips going down the road from the nylon failing & the chain jumps you can bet the valves will smack the pistons.   Seen it before.  Yours might have been changed,  if you have'nt done it you just don't know.  It's worth the piece of mind.

You need a timing gasket set too,   it'll have everything for the front that you took off.   And obviously an intake gasket & valvecover gaskets since you have them off.  

Valve seals are another story,     take a light & look in-between the coils of the valve springs.   you should see a black umbrella-shaped seal that rides on the valve stem of each.   If they look intact try to poke the with a small screwdriver & see if they're still soft.   Most likely not at 100K.   they're usually cracked & or broken.  

If they're soft & you don't want to go any further leave them.     If they're hard & broken there's 2 ways to go about it.     They can just be changed on the car.    You pull the rocker shaft ( the 5 bolts across the shaft ), bring each cylinder up to Top & either pump air into the cylinder or use rope to fill the chamber through the spark plug hole to hold the valve shut & you get a specific tool that compresses the vale spring to let you get the Valve  spring keepers off & take the retainer & spring off.   The seal just slides off then & you change 1 at a time.

To me it's just easier to pull the head & put it on the bench!   Only thing is getting the exhaust manifolds off,  they can be a bear sometimes.    You have to have the manifolds off to reach the bottom head bolts.

If you take the heads to a shop for a valve job & seals the might want to replace the valve guides too if they're worn.    Can get a bit expensive.

just all in how far you wanna go!

Butch


Title: Intake stuck
Post by: Butch Houghton on June 10, 2009, 07:45:11 AM
Oh yeah....you are going to clean & paint the engine right?   LOL!

Plasticote & Duplicolor both have a decent Chrysler Blue  & can be gotten at most parts houses.

Butch


Title: Intake stuck
Post by: Snotty on June 10, 2009, 09:36:08 AM
Did you get the intake off?
 
I don't like the suggestions of prying - there's too much possiblilty of breaking something that shouldn't be broken.  Tapping it with a light hammer should "break" it loose.  Oh, that thing will be HEAVY!  Watch your back when you lift it off.
Title: Intake stuck
Post by: Steve on June 10, 2009, 02:01:44 PM
Here's the Plasticoat color.  Very close.  It's wrong for a big block
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/5/3007.jpg)
Title: Intake stuck
Post by: attkrlufy on June 12, 2009, 04:31:59 AM

Quote from: Snotty
Did you get the intake off?
Oh, that thing will be HEAVY!  Watch your back when you lift it off.
I got it!  ...though I had to use my favorite wrecking bar - "The persuader."  But after a little persuading, it popped off.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3313/3619608412_ef5f766903.jpg)

Ooof!  You were right.  That thing is surprisingly heavy.

However, now that's it's off, I have a few new questions/concerns - but I'll post them later.  Right now, I'm glad I was able to give it a pretty good cleaning yesterday - though it was so dirty, I'm still not done.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3643/3618795109_774e1ef721.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3634/3618795021_734ab81f5e.jpg)

Title: Intake stuck
Post by: attkrlufy on June 12, 2009, 04:35:58 AM


Quote from: HemiFury
Oh yeah....you are going to clean & paint the engine right?   LOL!
Yeah, right.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)  I'll give the valve covers and intake a good painting, and clean the rest the best I can - but this is an "engine in" series of repairs, you know?

There's no way I can get it looking like Polaraco's post.  Though I'm surprised the fuel pump and water pump were painted.  Aren't those usually left their normal metallic color?
attkrlufy2009-06-12 09:38:40
Title: Intake stuck
Post by: Steve on June 12, 2009, 06:12:27 AM
No they are painted at the factory.
 
May as well replace the water pump while you have it off.  I assume you are doing the timing chain. . . .
Title: Intake stuck
Post by: Butch Houghton on June 12, 2009, 08:31:46 AM

A lot of stuff was painted on the engines

(http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL683/2961991/5989146/194633481.jpg)

HemiFury2009-06-12 13:32:15
Title: Intake stuck
Post by: attkrlufy on June 12, 2009, 12:33:23 PM

Quote from: POLARACO
May as well replace the water pump while you have it off.  I assume you are doing the timing chain. . . .
The water pump will EVENTUALLY be replaced.  One of the bolts is stuck and I'm out of ideas on how to unfreeze it w/o snapping the head off.  I don't want to use heat because there's a lot of aluminum there.  Even though the about-to-be junked water pump doesn't matter, the timing chain cover is aluminum and I want to keep that.  Heat + aluminum = bad idea.

Sure, I'd like to redo the timing chain....but I have no experience with engine timing, it's next to impossible to get help out here if I do screw something up, and my FSM says I need all these specialty tools that I simply don't have.

How about it Polaraco?  Feel like taking a 4hr. road-trip (each way) to Ithaca, NY to help me out?  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)

Title: Intake stuck
Post by: Andy on June 13, 2009, 01:00:10 PM
I'm sorry, please don't take offense, BUT, that is the ugliest engine color I've ever seen! Looks like it could be an engine color for my friends suzuki x-90, the car I call "Cartoon Car!"
Title: Intake stuck
Post by: Butch Houghton on June 14, 2009, 07:09:59 AM
Not real crazy about the Blue myself but,   correct is correct & the customer is always right!   lol!      When I had the 78 Aspen I couldn't paint that one blue,   it went orange.   As a matter of fact,  just did Nephews 75 duater & I gave him the choice....Blue or Orange.    He went Orange!

Since you can post pics okay,  if you get into the Timing set everybody here could keep you straight on the install with them.

Only real special tool is the Damper puller,   you could rent it since it's common or go to Sears & buy one.    You can also use them to pull a steering wheel.

You can do it!

Forget the heads,  more work than you probably want!   If it's not smoking or using excessive oil then it's okay for now.

Butch


Title: Intake stuck
Post by: attkrlufy on June 15, 2009, 07:02:45 AM

Quote from: HemiFury
Since you can post pics okay,  if you get into the Timing set everybody here could keep you straight on the install with them.
Well, maybe I'll give it a shot.  I feel like I gotta get some courage, though.  Better head to the liquor cabinet for some "courage"....

Quote from: HemiFury
Only real special tool is the Damper puller,   you could rent it since it's common or go to Sears & buy one.    You can also use them to pull a steering wheel.
Well, I have used a tool like that to pull my steering wheel before - so that's nothing new. 

What about the timing chain cover external oil seal?  I assume that would need to be replaced.  My FSM says there is a special tool needed to put a new seal back on.  Is that one I can "rent" from Autozone, too?

Plus, the FSM says there's a special tool (a different one from the puller) needed to put the vibration damper back on.  Again, is this an easy tool to rent?  It doesn't do me any good to get the damper off if I can't put it back on.

Quote from: HemiFury
You can do it!
We'll see....since when did you become a character from "The Waterboy," anyway?  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)

Quote from: HemiFury
Forget the heads,  more work than you probably want!   If it's not smoking or using excessive oil then it's okay for now.
I think that's exactly what I'm going to do - leave them alone.  I've got enough on my plate, already. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley21.gif)


Title: Intake stuck
Post by: Snotty on June 15, 2009, 07:37:33 AM
All things are a matter of taste - I've always liked the Mopar blue.
Title: Intake stuck
Post by: Butch Houghton on June 16, 2009, 05:35:11 AM
Damper puller.....

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/search_10153_12605?keyword=damper+puller&x=0&y=0

Cheap enough,  especially if you're gonna work on cars.

You don't need a special tool to install,   the Damper is a slight interference fit ( like .001 ) & you can tap them on with a hammer.  Just make sure to hit only the center where the main bolt/washer is.   NOT the outer ring.   Tap it just far enough to get the center bolt to engage & then use the bolt to pull it on down.   Takes about 125 LB/FT so a 1/2 is needed for sure.

The front seal can be driven out with a Screwdriver & hammer,  Just lay in on the bench & it'll come out.  Then tap the new one back in GENTLY into the cover.     When you go to put the seal in put a light coat of RTV on the outside metal part that rides on the cover.   Pay attention to which way it fits in too.    Also put some oil on the lip of the seal.

Here's a trick,    put the front cover on & don't tighten it completely yet,   slide the damper on ( oil the surface that rides on the seal ) & pull the damper up & then tighten the timing cover all the way.   What this does is make sure the damper is centered in the seal.   There's enough slop in the mounting  bolts to get the cover just slightly off & could put pressure on one side of the seal.   Most likely not a real big deal but it's one of those things that falls into " why not"  be safe.

The front seal can be a bear to get started sometimes since it's a tight fit,   just don't hit it too hard & bend it.   You tap on the outer metal edge & it will be hard to keep centered but take your time & it'll eventually start.   Make sure you drive it till it hits bottom in the timiing cover. If nothing else lay a piece of 2X4 over it & hammer on that,  it'll spread the load around the outside of the seal.

Butch




Title: Intake stuck
Post by: attkrlufy on June 16, 2009, 08:08:28 AM

Okay Butch, I'm gonna do it - I'm going to change the timing set, too.  But I'm gonna ask about a million questions before I'm done and personally drive you bonkers as part of the process.  Get your white flag ready.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif)

Do I really need to change the WHOLE chain/sprocket assembly?  Isn't the issue with just the factory nylon chain?  Couldn't I replace only that, instead?

I feel like if I replace the cam and crank sprockets, too, I'm going to open up a whole can of worms.  The FSM tells me there's, like, five parts I have to remove as part of the cam sprocket assembly (the thrust plate being one of them) and that the old thrust plate "should be checked for less than 0.010 inch end play.  If not within these limits, install new thrust plate."

I can hear the avalanche starting..... How would I even go about checking to see that something is moving less than 1/100th of an inch?(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley21.gif) Do I use a microscope?

So apparently I should replace the oil seal.....What about the vibration damper?  I read they're fluid filled and, over time, need to be replaced.  Would this be a good time to replace the damper, too?

Quote from: HemiFury
  Tap it just far enough to get the center bolt to engage & then use the bolt to pull it on down.
I'm not exactly sure what that means....I guess I'll figure it out when I get there.  I have a 1/2" torque wrench that goes to 140 ft/lbs, so at least I'm set with that.
 
Quote from: HemiFury
When you go to put the seal in put a light coat of RTV on the outside metal part that rides on the cover.   Pay attention to which way it fits in too.    Also put some oil on the lip of the seal.
"Outside metal part"?  You mean the part of the oil seal that contacts the the bottom of the "well" that the oil seal rests in (on the timing chain cover)?  And when you say "lip" you mean the side of the seal - the thinnest part of the seal, right?

Quote from: HemiFury
Here's a trick, put the front cover on & don't tighten it completely yet,   slide the damper on ( oil the surface that rides on the seal ) & pull the damper up & then tighten the timing cover all the way.   What this does is make sure the damper is centered in the seal.
Oh...you mean the weight of the damper is enough to pull down on the seal to misalign the match between the two parts even when the seal's in and the cover is secured to the engine?
Title: Intake stuck
Post by: Butch Houghton on June 17, 2009, 07:55:43 AM
Yep,  whole chain & gears....that's what a timing set comes with

The chain isn't Nylon,  the camshaft gear is.   That's what fails & thee combination of a loose chain means it all slips timing.   Best to replace with new gears & a chain to match.

Stop reading the FSM!  LOL  It's scaring ya!    There's no reason to pull the camshaft thrust plate.   That's only it you're gonna change the camshaft.    Leave it alone.  Just read the part about changing the Chain itself & lining it up with the dots.

The cam gear is held on with 1 bolt & washer & the fuel pump eccentric is behind the washer.  The whole mess sits on a keyway so the gear & eccentric  only goes on 1 way.    You'll see it when you get it off.


Since the damper is a slight interference fit it won't slide on,  it has to be driven on.    Doesn't take that much force,  just tap with a hammer on the center area of the damper where the center bolt contacts until it's far enough for the center bolt/washer to thread in & then use the bolt to pull it down the rest of the way.   You'll see the very center of the damper has a raised ridge that the washer rides on  tap on it there working in a circle to walk the damper on.    And no there's no fluid in the dampers.    If you look there's the center section & then a small/thin section of rubber  & the outer section all pressed together.  That little ring of ruber is called the inertia ring,  they can fail over time but if it looks okay then it's fine.    It's proably got paint on it but if you clean it you'll see the thin bit of rubber.

when you get it off show us a pic ,  probably okay.

Yeah, the outer metal ring of the oil seal is where you tap on it to drive it in the timing cover,   The inner "lip"  would be the rubber seal itself that rides on the damper to seal.  

It's  not the wieght of the damper,  the damper centers on the crankshaft but the timing cover has just a bit of slop in the bolts so that the seal might not be centered on the damper.
Like I said that's ususally not a big deal & if it sounds too confusing then just bolt the timing cover up & the stick the damper on.     I've never had an issue either way & it's just one of those little thing I do to be even safer.  

I forgot to mention,  the crank gear just slides off but it might be stuck with varnish & you take 2 screwdrivers & pry it off.   The oil slinger it in front of the gear too,  just slides off.   Take note of how the slinger  faces,  the cupped side faces the timing cover.

The smart thing to do first is to park the engine on #1 Top-Dead-Center ( TDC ) ......
Is the distributor still in?   I forget from the pics.    If it is just pull the cap & turn the motor over by hand till the rotor points to the front of the car & line up the timing mark on the damper with the 0 on the timing cover.   That should be #1 TDC,   if you line up the marks & the rotor points to the rear of the car then it's on #6 TDC,  180 degrees out.

If you have it out already & remember which way the rotor was facing just put it back the way it cam out & do the above.   Doesn't have to be bolted in for this.

Another smart thing would be to have all the plugs out,  much easier to turn it over.

Next question!    

Here's a bit of theory for ya,   how many degrees of rotation for a 4-cycle engine....720!
2 complete revolutionsof the crank for each cycle.    That's why you can have the timing marks line up on zero twice & only 1 way is correct.    The Camshaft & distributor run at 1/2 crank speed so that's how it's all timed for the complete cycle.    

Butch