MoparFins

Techical Discussions => Tech- - DRIVE TRAIN => Topic started by: Stan Paralikis on December 07, 2008, 12:44:43 PM

Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stan Paralikis on December 07, 2008, 12:44:43 PM
I'm getting a first order vibration I do not like. That means a vibration that increases in direct proportion with an increase in RPM.  From idle on up. In neutral or in gear. Moving or at standstill.
Thinking of focussing in on the torque converter.
Should it matter how if was bolted to the flex plate?
That is...If I unbolt the TC from the flexplate and rotate it 90 degrees, should it make a difference?  I wouldn't think so, but, I'm listening...
 
Commando12009-01-06 12:12:03
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Steve on December 07, 2008, 03:29:33 PM
No Stan
It will only bolt on one way.

You took the weights off that right?
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stan Paralikis on December 07, 2008, 07:32:56 PM
Yep.  Took the weights off.
 
"It will only bolt on one way. "
What are you talking about? The four holes where the flex plate bolt to the TQ are evenly spaced. If I unbolt the two and spin the TQ 90 or 180 degrees and rebolt it to the flexplate might do it.  Just like sometimes spinning the driveshaft 180 (which I already tried) will get rid of a vibration.
 
 (http://i36.tinypic.com/66gaaf.jpg)
 
Commando12008-12-08 01:00:26
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Steve on December 08, 2008, 03:50:10 AM
every other flex plate I have ever seen are slightly off
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stan Paralikis on December 08, 2008, 05:08:44 AM
Hmmmmmmmmm............    Commando12008-12-08 10:16:33
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stan Paralikis on December 08, 2008, 05:30:35 AM
OK.  It's coming back to me.  I forgot that  The flex plate will only line up on convertor one way and it is not completely square.
Uncle Steevee to the rescue.  Again.
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Butch Houghton on December 08, 2008, 05:41:16 AM
Yep,  all Flexplates  have 1 hole off by about half a hole width so they can only  go  on 1 way.

What do I see on both sides of the drain plug on the converter?    I know you took the weights off but  there still looks like some residual metal there,   maybe enough to still throw the balance? 

Other stupid things that'll  cause vibrations......Bell housing bolts loose ( BTDT)   Loose mounts Etc.    Maybe just something off in the Tune ,   bad sparkplug wire or plug ,  Initial timing too high ......you did use the port on the pass-side of the metering block for the vacuum advance, right?   not one in the baseplate?    Metering block is the ported source on a Holley.

Go thru all the usual checks & see if anything shows,  might not be a "balalnce" issue after all.

Butch


Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stan Paralikis on December 08, 2008, 07:26:25 AM
Quote from: HemiFury
Yep,  all Flexplates  have 1 hole off by about half a hole width so they can only  go  on 1 way.
What do I see on both sides of the drain plug on the converter?    I know you took the weights off but  there still looks like some residual metal there,   maybe enough to still throw the balance?
Other stupid things that'll  cause vibrations......Bell housing bolts loose ( BTDT)
Check
 
Loose mounts Etc.
Check. Check.
 
 Maybe just something off in the Tune ,   bad sparkplug wire or plug,
Check. Check.
 
Initial timing too high
Check
 
......you did use the port on the pass-side of the metering block for the vacuum advance, right?   not one in the baseplate?    Metering block is the ported source on a Holley.
Go thru all the usual checks & see if anything shows, 
Check. Check.  And, check.
 
might not be a "balalnce" issue after all.
Only after going through every tuning issue, did I start thinking about balance issues.
Commando12008-12-08 12:33:47
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Butch Houghton on December 08, 2008, 08:29:22 AM
Okay then,  Good!  Ya got all the usual stuff checked.    Not converter most likely.

Can you actually see it vibrate at Idle or do you just feel it?

Butch


Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Steve on December 08, 2008, 11:35:42 AM
Quote from: Commando1
OK.  It's coming back to me.  I forgot that  The flex plate will only line up on convertor one way and it is not completely square.
Uncle Steevee to the rescue.  Again.
 
This isn't going to be another one of those engine locked routines is it? (http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/bootyshake.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/bootyshake.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/bootyshake.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/bootyshake.gif)
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stan Paralikis on December 08, 2008, 11:38:10 AM
Oh you can see it all right.... (http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/confused/confused0087.gif)
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Steve on December 08, 2008, 02:07:12 PM
There is another possibility

I sure hope not


You have a component like a piston or a rod way out of whack.  Did you by chance hae it balanced?

Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stan Paralikis on December 08, 2008, 03:19:40 PM
Nope.  But.....
The original rod & piston pairs were reused in the same cylinders.
 
 
(http://www.massmopar.com/yabb/Smilies/PlumGrin.gif)
 
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: glen cyr on December 13, 2008, 04:35:12 PM
Is it possible to put about a 2 ounce strong magnet on different positions on the front of the torque converter to offset the balance?. I've never tried it,but,...ya' never know. I'm not sure if they will fly off or not,but you could try one on the damper also! Dampers do slip as the rubber breaks down after many cycles!
 
Glen
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stan Paralikis on December 13, 2008, 04:43:44 PM
I've been doing some research on daper theory.   What I have learned is that dampers don't smooth out vibrations from inbalance.  They are there for the torsional vibrations produced by the crank. In other words, with the type of vibration I'm etting, a damper is not the solution. 
 
I think.
 
I need to think about this some more. 
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stitcherbob on December 13, 2008, 07:42:28 PM

you also need to stock up on Stanley avatars in different positions....I like that thinker one!


Maybe Glen's idea would work using those rare earth magnets (I buy em cheap at ACE Hardware in the tool aisle) on the torque converter to play around with balance weights......

stitcherbob2008-12-14 00:44:36
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Bill Mounteer on December 13, 2008, 11:38:28 PM
If you remove the converter bolts and loosen off the bell housing bolts to create some space between the TC plate and TC then you could run the engine without connection to the transmission. You would need to put some wedges around the bell housing to hold it back and tie the TQ to the transmission to keep it from sliding around. If the vibration goes away then you know it's probably TC related, if it doesn't you know it's in the engine. 

Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stan Paralikis on December 14, 2008, 04:50:46 AM
Quote from: Fury440
If you remove the converter bolts and...  
Thought about that but how do I get it started and running?
 
Commando12008-12-14 10:14:42
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Steve on December 14, 2008, 05:43:13 AM
I have one from a 68
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stan Paralikis on December 14, 2008, 08:17:32 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
I have one from a 68
 
24 spline, right?
I'll pay for the shipping.  Call me....
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Bill Mounteer on December 14, 2008, 09:28:05 AM

Quote from: Commando1
.... but how do I get it started and running?

Duh! I didn't think that idea all the way through! (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif)

If you've got a good arm, I suppose you could wrap a cord around the front damper and start it like a lawn mower! (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)

Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Steve on December 14, 2008, 11:30:53 AM
Quote from: Commando1
Quote from: POLARACO
I have one from a 68
 
24 spline, right?
 
OK  Let me find it first.  I think it's up in the storage locker.  Oh Boy!  I have a whole Polara on top of it
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stan Paralikis on December 19, 2008, 07:25:28 AM
OK.  I'm pretty sure I know what the problem is.  Put it up on the lift and pulled the torque converter inspection plate. Ran the car.  Noise coming from inside the TC.  Sounded like a broken stator - whatever that should sound like.  Put some magnets on the TC and the vibration smoothed out somewhat before they shot off inside the housing scattering magnetic shrapnel like a terrorist's land mine. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif) 

 
Commando12008-12-19 14:32:34
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stitcherbob on December 19, 2008, 12:31:36 PM

(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/10/air_raid_wardens.jpg)

I knew if you looked hard enough you'd find the problem!





(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)


Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stan Paralikis on December 19, 2008, 01:23:42 PM
Perfect!  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif)
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stitcherbob on December 19, 2008, 04:59:37 PM

Quote from: stitcherbob
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/10/air_raid_wardens.jpg)




"Ollie..... why did the transmission just leap into the trunk?"

Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Steve on December 19, 2008, 06:23:41 PM
Quote from: Commando1
OK.  I'm pretty sure I know what the problem is.  Put it up on the lift and pulled the torque converter inspection plate. Ran the car.  Noise coming from inside the TC.  Sounded like a broken stator - whatever that should sound like.  Put some magnets on the TC and the vibration smoothed out somewhat before they shot off inside the housing scattering magnetic shrapnel like a terrorist's land mine. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif) 

 
 
Does this mean I'm off the hook?
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stan Paralikis on December 20, 2008, 01:01:45 AM
Quote from: POLARACO
 
 
Yes.  Now you won't have to do your archaoligical dig through centuries of moparts, unearthing forgotton treasures (junk?) and exploring ancient civilizations. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif)
 
(http://www.salvage-auto.com/common/imagelib/index.htm/2257_550_250_crop_eeff6.jpg)
 
Seriously, your offer was appreciated, though. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif)
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Butch Houghton on December 21, 2008, 06:16:19 AM
I told ya it was a good time to put in another converter!   LOL!

Find somebody that carries Dayco Re-builts if ya want an inexpensive one.  See if you can get the Factory Hi-stall version.   It'll work better with the engine setup.

Butch


Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stan Paralikis on December 21, 2008, 06:41:47 AM
Quote from: HemiFury
I told ya it was a good time to put in another converter!   LOL!
You don't know how much I agonized over that when the tranny was out.
 
And you don't know how much I'm kicking myself now.
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stan Paralikis on January 06, 2009, 07:14:15 AM
Well.  Just as I thought.
Got the new torque converter in and the engine runs like an 09 Lexus.
Awesome!!!!
 
(http://www.moparhemi.com/Gallery/TheStanleyDance.gif)
 
Commando12009-01-06 12:15:40
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Steve on January 06, 2009, 08:21:13 AM
What was the difference in the converters?  Any?
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stan Paralikis on January 06, 2009, 08:43:22 AM
When the motor was running, you could hear a rattle in the old one.  All one can guess is a damaged stator.  There was a core charge for the new one so I don't have it anymore.

The new one was a dead stock remanufactured. Commando12009-01-06 14:12:49
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Arlen Vander Hoff on January 06, 2009, 10:51:21 AM
Cool Stan!!! Glad ya got it fixed.
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Steve on January 06, 2009, 11:06:00 AM
Quote from: Commando1
When the motor was running, you could hear a rattle in the old one.  All one can guess is a damaged stator.  There was a core charge for the new one so I don't have it anymore.

The new one was a dead stock remanufactured.
 
Are you sure you didn't fudge it up?  (http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/smiley_buttkick.gif)  (http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/smiley_buttkick.gif)   (http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/smilies-2008/confused013.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/smilies-2008/confused013.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/smilies-2008/confused013.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/smilies-2008/confused013.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/shock.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/shock.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/shock.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/shock.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/rofl%5b1%5d.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/rofl%5b1%5d.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/rofl%5b1%5d.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/rofl%5b1%5d.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/rofl%5b1%5d.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/rofl%5b1%5d.gif)(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/rofl%5b1%5d.gif)
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Stan Paralikis on January 06, 2009, 11:27:10 AM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif) (http://www.tnalafireworks.com/images/ballbuster.jpg)
Title: Vibration - Yep. It was the TC
Post by: Steve on January 06, 2009, 11:32:22 AM
(http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/party.gif)          (http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/smiley_Notworthy.gif)         (http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/groupwave2.gif)
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