MoparFins

Techical Discussions => Tech- - ELECTRICAL => Topic started by: Steve on August 10, 2008, 06:27:38 AM

Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on August 10, 2008, 06:27:38 AM
If you're reading this, there's a good chance you're familiar with the trials and tribulations I've experienced in trying to get my 1968 Sport Fury Convertible (440 L-code) to a mechanically reliable condition. I have had an unbelievable amount of help both here and in the real world. Without you guys and my great friends Jon H, Dave S, Jon L and Will G, I would be in a world of trouble.

My thanks to you all.

A refresher on what's been done over the last few months:
I'm starting to get to the end of my list of things to be fixed. Thank God, as my finances are pretty much their end. That being said, I move onto the problem at hand.

I've had an electrical-related ignition problem. I'll spare you the long story, but the engine starts to run really rough and stall when I hit the brakes to stop or at idle (see my "LOOOONG TF Shifting issue" thread in the Drive Train section for details). Well it seems that the brake light circuit is not the cause. the real cause is that it doesn't appear that I have 12V at the 'feed' side of the ballast resistor. NOTE: Yesterday, I noticed that my coil also gets extremely hot when the engine is running. I don't know how this fits in, but I am thinking it's related

Now this is where I ran one of the wires from the Electronic Control Module when I installed the Electronic Conversion kit. If I run a temporary jumper wire from +VBAT to the feed side of the ballast resistor, the idle smooths right out and there is no stumble whatsoever. remove the jumper and the idle is rough and wants to stall. I should also note that while the jumper wire is applied, the ammeter doesn't react when electrical loads are applied (like brake lights, head lights, etc.).

I have a theory that what I have been calling the 'feed' side, is actually the output side.

What do you folks think?

Thanks for listening!

Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on August 10, 2008, 10:16:15 AM
There's tons of stuff around on this.  But being a early C, start looking at the bulk head connector and fuse block.
 
This will help
http://www.moparfins.com/Repairs/Electrical/Bulk_Head_Connectors.htm (http://www.moparfins.com/Repairs/Electrical/Bulk_Head_Connectors.htm)
 
This has been the #1 problem with all the 60's Mopars.  It was never really cured until 74 or 75.  But in 72, considerable improvements were made in the wiring
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on August 10, 2008, 12:58:37 PM
Once again, POLARACO to the rescue. Thanks for the link. I'll start to investigate the bulkhead/fuse block connection and as always report success/failure.

While I have you, any ideas on why my coil is getting so hot? I can't decide if a low voltage condition would cause this symptom.

Thanks again!!


Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on August 10, 2008, 01:06:09 PM
Coils get hot.  Remember it's nothing more than a transformer packed in oil.  It should be seeing around 9 volts at the + side.
 
Is it so hot you can't touch it?  It would be burning off the paint then
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on August 10, 2008, 01:09:14 PM
It's hot enough that you could touch it for a couple seconds, but longer would be painful if not burn inducing.

Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on August 10, 2008, 01:10:50 PM
To be fair, the whole engine seems to give off a LOT of heat. I assumed this was a MOPAR trait. Am I wrong?

BTW, Hi, Polaraco!


Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on August 10, 2008, 01:11:00 PM
Sounds normal.  Is it a stock oil filled?
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on August 10, 2008, 01:16:40 PM
No. Aftermarket. I don't remember the brand off the top of my head, but it might be MSD. Cannister-type, I thing 40,000 Volts. I'll check and confirm tomorrow, if necessary.

Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on August 10, 2008, 01:31:43 PM
Probably oil packed.  Yes they do get hot.  Don't forget there is some engine heat involved too
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on August 10, 2008, 01:47:30 PM
OK, glad to hear that, POLARACO.

BTW, when I took her out for a test of the transmission, WOW! This car can really move out!

With every repair, I love her more and more.


Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Snotty on August 10, 2008, 05:57:43 PM
Unk, I just saw soimething that I don't recall seeing in your earlier posts.  You said it starts to misfire and stall "when you put your brakes on to stop."  There's a large possibility your problem is not electrical at all, but vacuum.
 
The only time I've experienced what you're describing is when I've had a leak on the power brake system, either on the vacuum hose going to your intake, the check valve being cracked, or a bad booster.   Some times the plastic cap on the spare check valve outlety has popped off. 
 
When any of the above happens your motor will draw way too much air when you apply the brakes and run bad, and/or die.
 
HAve you checked your power brake sysgtem ofr leaks or cracks?  When you put your foot on the pedal do you hear air?  (Hint: you should hear nothing.)
 
I would start there.
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Leaburn Patey on August 10, 2008, 06:12:20 PM
Sorry,Snotts,he did mention in a previous post that he has manual (no power assist) brakes.
That'sa what lead him to believe it was the brake light switch taking a draw.
 
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Snotty on August 11, 2008, 04:01:36 PM
Quote from: CBarge
Sorry,Snotts,he did mention in a previous post that he has manual (no power assist) brakes.
That'sa what lead him to believe it was the brake light switch taking a draw.
 
When I was writing the above, the thought did hit me that he might have manual brakes.  Did I check??
 
He** no!
 
Sheesh!  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley18.gif)
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on August 11, 2008, 07:40:09 PM
Time to open mouth and change feet.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: R. Dave Carr on August 12, 2008, 07:00:10 PM
Ooooooh, oooooh let me field this one!  Last winter when I put electronic ignition in my 300, I tried to drive it at night with the headlights on.  Everytime I hit the brakes, the car died and was hard to restart.  Got to the point where it died just turning the headlights on.  Come to find out, the alternator was dropping its load under heavy demand, and the electronic igntion was just enough to finish it off.  Check your output voltage, bnulkhead connector, and all the other  usual suspects in the charging system.
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Leaburn Patey on August 13, 2008, 01:35:08 AM
Quote from: carrman
Ooooooh, oooooh let me field this one!QUOTE]
(http://www.nonsportcardexpo.com/images/fall07/ron.jpg)
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Matt Aker on August 13, 2008, 05:35:49 AM
Great...  now I'll have that theme song stuck in my head ALL DAY (http://moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif)(http://moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif)  Thank-You Lea (http://moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)
 
What is your alternator output when different accessories are being used?  Find someone to sit in the car and flip switches while you watch the multi meter.  It could be as simple as a weak alternator.  The later 60-amp "square backs" work better with electronic ignition and are less expensive than the stock one.
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on August 13, 2008, 07:27:34 AM
read the voltage at the battery and inside the car as well.
 
You can get rebuilts up to 65 amps now.  However, the wiring in the older 60's up to 71 was only good for 40 amps (#10 Wire).  in 72, the wire was upgraded to #8 and in 74 it went to #6 primaries.  74 was oretty much the end of primary bulkhead feed failures.  They were drastically reduced in 72, but still not eliminated.
 
You could run a 2nd #10 direct from the alternator to the starter relay.  It will disable your ammeter on the dash though
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on August 13, 2008, 07:28:13 AM
either way, you still need to check the bulk head and alt output of the alt.
 
Good call Dave
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Ken on August 13, 2008, 07:45:19 PM


I just dealt with a crapped-out alternator with Chaz.  I already have had a jumper wire put in from the output of the alt to the starter relay, to help limit the load to the ammeter in the dash, but I was noticing the blower speed of the fan was WAY slow and the headlamps were dim.

I did a test where I had the '04 Armada supplying power to the Chrysler with jumper cables, both vehicles running, and I found the electronic voltage regulator was not seeing much over 10v, but the battery was seeing 13.5v due to the Armada's charging system.

I also did a quick "listening test" of the alternator using a long Philip's screw-driver as the stethoscope, and heard a bearing growl at the rear of the case. I was pretty sure at that point it was (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley11.gif)

I searched online for a local source for a single-field alternator, and supposedly a Kragen's in the area actually had one.  When I went to pick it up, I asked to have it verified for proper operation with their tester, and either due to the unit not having the proper adapter or the alternator actually had a faulty diode set, it failed.

They did have a '70-up 2 field alternator, which passed when tested, so I got that instead, thinking the 60A output wouldn't hurt.

After taking out the dead alternator, I noticed one of the diode sets was actually shifting in the case (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif), so it definitely was toastado (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley11.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley11.gif)(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley11.gif)

After I swapped over a spacer to the new alternator, and fashioned a jumper to ground the 2nd field, everything was MUCH better, with a 12.7v reading being the lowest I could see on my DVOM with the engine running and the highbeams and AC on, and 13.5V when idling.

Now I need to find a core to give back to Kragen's!

Tomorrow I'll drop Chaz off at a recommended shop for optimizing the fuel and timing. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif)

Moesy2008-08-14 00:46:09
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on August 16, 2008, 09:13:09 AM
Sorry for the delay responding. I haven't investigated the SF yet and didn't realize you guys were still hashing it out until just now. I'll start with the alternator and work from there.

If I need a new alternator, what should I get? I can't tell which you folks recommend. I'd rather not have to re-wire the charging circuit if at all possible. I also don't want to lose my ammeter either. (not too demanding, eh)

Thanks guys. I trust your opinions and will follow your recommendations.




Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on August 16, 2008, 12:24:09 PM
45 Amp if you can get it.  Most I see are 65.  But that will work
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Matt Aker on August 16, 2008, 03:48:57 PM
When I bought my '66 NYer in 1990 it already had the square-back alternator installed.  I drove the car with the original wiring for over ten years without an issue!

If you order an alternator for a slant-six D-100 with electronic ignition it will be the same as what I had in that car.
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on August 31, 2008, 05:16:11 AM
UPDATE

Just keeping you all up to speed (if I haven't lost you all from boredom).

Alternator output is good;voltage regulator output is good. As a stop-gap measure, a friend designed a simple circuit to deliver the 12V  that the ECU want. We connected +VBAT to a Bosch-style relay, connected the wire that was previously connected to the feed-side of the ballast resistor to the relay output and used the feed-side of the ballast resistor (which is ignition-switched) as the relay switch.

An complete success!!! The engine idled smoothly as never before. It was clearly loving its new 12V diet. I couldn't wait for the test drive. Even though it was drizzling, my freind and I took her out.

What a HUGE performance difference!!! The engine was now developing power! As I was turning around at the end of the unpopulated dead-end road I selected for a test track, the car sputtered and stopped!!

Long story short, evidently there is a LOT of crap in the fuel tank. Enough to screw up my fuel pump. I limped her home with a siphon line from a 5 gal. gas can to the carb. the longest 2 mile drive of my life.

I'm not too upset. The car ran incredibly well until this unrelated issue. Because I see some weeping around the seam of the tank, I've decided she needs a new fuel tank. While I'm at it, I suppose I should replace the sending unit as well. And if I'm gonna go that far, I might as well replace all the fuel line too. It looks like a hodgepodge of previous repairs anyway. I bought 20' of 5/16" steel line, some unions and a tube bending tool. I removed the fuel pump and managed to get that working properly again. Since it's brand-new, I'm not going to replace it.

I see a guy on ebay selling new fuel tanks for my car. He wants $295+S&H. Is this a good price? Anyone else selling these?

Things I learned yesterday:
1) the 440HP makes alot of power.
2) a 2.76 rear-end ratio may be great for cruising and fuel economy, but sucks for everything else.
3) this car is going to suck the financial life out of me.

One day I'll post nothing but 100% good news.......but not today.

Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on August 31, 2008, 02:15:05 PM
Steve
 
Trials and tribulations of getting a car going. . .
 
I had a relay in the back of my mind for that, but waited to see what you came up with.  Glad that worked out.
 
Remember, these things are refered to as a big boat.  Boats are holes in the water you pour money into.  But if you use quality parts up front, and do the job right, the spending stops.
 
Who's the seller of that tank on RGay?
 
Steve
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on September 01, 2008, 12:42:17 PM
Mitchell MOtor PARts

(no words;beat....must sleep)


Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on September 01, 2008, 01:21:39 PM
There has to be some place else to get it.  Mitchells is bad
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on September 01, 2008, 04:10:58 PM
This is why you're loved by millions!(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)

Suggestions?


Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Ken on September 02, 2008, 06:58:56 PM
I got my tank from Mitchells, plus the grommet.  Had them installed 2 years ago. Hey, sometimes you do what you have to do.

Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on September 03, 2008, 05:30:23 AM
Yeah two years ago Mitchells was bad.  But they have changed hands and are worse now.  See all those negitive feed backs?  One of them is mine.  I got my tank for Polaraco from them too!  But they hosed me
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on September 03, 2008, 07:40:22 AM
Define 'Hosed'. Misunderstanding, or a blatant screwing?

I'm bummin'


Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on September 03, 2008, 07:51:57 AM
Hey Steve
 
Well Both.  I was buying for two separate cars on the same order.  My mistake.  So they decided, on their own, to make changes to my order.  That caused me to be short shipped and have a pile of wrong parts.  When I discussed it with them, they told me what they did, even though I put it all in writing.  My email to them was so simple a chimp could get it right.  The claimed I was wrong and would not make good for the changes or do any exchanges.
 
So I got irrate with them and they shut me off.  I filed a claim with the credit card company, got my credits because they could not reply in an appropriate manor.  In other words, they were thrying to BS their way out of it.
 
I forgot where I got this gas tank, but it was about 50 cheaper than from him.  I emailed Leaburn for you on a source for the tanks.  I think they come from Canada
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Leaburn Patey on September 03, 2008, 03:36:22 PM
Spectra Premium manufactures the tanks here in Canada.
 http://www.spectrapremium.com/spectra.html (http://www.spectrapremium.com/spectra.html)
CR20A with no vents
CR20B with two vents (the most common one )
CR20C with 4 vents
NAPA,O'rielly's or any other major U.S. parts chains uses Spectra as a supplier,so it should be listed and available.
Here's one listed at AutoZone:
http://www.autozone.com/R,1860455/vehicleId,1510102/initialAction,partProductDetail/store,5125/partType,00506/shopping/partProductDetail.htm (http://www.autozone.com/R,1860455/vehicleId,1510102/initialAction,partProductDetail/store,5125/partType,00506/shopping/partProductDetail.htm)
FYI,Spectra makes the sending unit brand new as well.Its # is FG148A.
The tank can be pricey-so shop araound or if you have a good mechanic friend or a parts store employee who can get you a deal.
CBarge2008-09-03 20:47:40
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on September 06, 2008, 07:23:39 AM
Jeez! I just bought a used tank (professionally relined) on ebay for $99 +S&H. Hope I didn't make a mistake trying to save a few (hundred) dollars.

Had no idea these tanks were available!

Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on September 06, 2008, 07:42:03 AM
As long as it has the proper vents on it, you'll be fine with that.
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on September 07, 2008, 06:44:13 AM
well, um, it has the two vents I need.......PLUS TWO BONUS VENTS! Woo Hoo, now she'll really fly! It's out of a 1970 Monaco. Being that they're vents, I'll just plug the other two I don't need(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)!

The tank also comes with a used sending unit. I bought a new one on ebay anyway.

20' of 5/16" steel fuel line
new lined fuel tank
new sending unit

am I forgetting anything? Oh yes, I knew I had a question here somewhere. I see that 440HP engines has a vapor canister installed between the fuel pump and the carburetor. Mine is missing. Is this a really critical and important component or is it not really necessary? this is going to see duty as a mellow, low-speed cruiser 99% of the time, with the occasional blast just to 'clean off the plugs' as my late grandfather would say when he would bring his new 1976 Dodge Aspen Wagon up on the highway and really let that monster 318 mill have at it. He'd sometimes go as fast as 80 mph!!!!!!!! Ahh the heady days of youth!

But seriously, do I need that canister?


Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Matt Aker on September 07, 2008, 07:38:42 AM
A "vapor canister"?  Can you take a picture of this?  My '68 NYer (same engine) just had the in-line fuel filter in that location.
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on September 07, 2008, 02:14:48 PM
Here's the description from "Year One":

Hemi fuel vapor separator fits 1968-1971 models with 440 engine.  Reproduction.



This
separator serves two purposes - It filters the fuel via a small screen
inside, and returns heat-vaporized fuel back to the fuel tank. This
excellent reproduction is finished in the correct black color, and
features the correct overall shape and lettering.



Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Matt Aker on September 07, 2008, 02:44:48 PM
Now I'm cornfoosed.  My '68 NYer had the same engine AND a four vent tank but still ran a single 3/8" in-line filter in the location we are talking about.  Did your Fury come from California?
 
My NYer had a steel vent line that went from the tank and ran around in the trunk under the spare tire before it went back to the tank.  This is with the Chrysler CAP (cleaner air package).  The third line went elsewhere, never smelled fuel.  The last was the engine feed.  My '68 Polara 383 4-V also had the CAP/four vent tank.  Both of these cars implemented a simple inline fuel filter between the pump and carb.
 
As far as the HEMI aspect, those engines ran a lot hotter under expected useage.  I've never seen a fuel filter matching Year-One's description on a 383 or 440 in a C-body.  If the one on your Fury is plugged it may be causing many of the car's problems.
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on September 07, 2008, 03:40:32 PM
No Matt, mine didn't have one when I got it. But the pump had been replaced, as had the line to the carb.

Did your NY'er have the 440HP or standard 440? Maybe the HP is the key?

I have the 440HP, but I don't know if I need it or not.


Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Matt Aker on September 08, 2008, 07:23:21 AM
That NYer had the TNT engine.  Can you post a pic or link to the fuel filter that you found?  I'm curious now...
 
We'll figure it out together (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif)
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on September 08, 2008, 12:48:00 PM

(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/126/vapor.jpg)Here you go....




Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Matt Aker on September 08, 2008, 03:17:48 PM
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif)  I've NEVER seen that fuel filter on a BB C-body.   (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif)
 
Where does the third (return) line actually go?  Any help here???? 
 
Seriously, put a standard 3/8" fuel filter in and see what happens.  I'm not a big fan of Y-1 and I've been around enough 440's from that time.  I've NEVER seen a fuel filter like that.
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on September 09, 2008, 11:31:26 AM
Whoa, there Matt. It's not a fuel filter. It's called a "Vapor Separator"and is supposedly used on Hemi and 440 performance engines from 1968-71.

That's all I know.

Thanks, Dude.

Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Matt Aker on September 10, 2008, 02:58:05 PM
A vapor separator would possibly have been used on a Hemi, due to the high heat issues from those engines when used as Chrysler had intended.
 
My instinct still tells me that a standard in-line filter should be the only thing between your fuel pump and carb.  Year One isn't too savvy with our cars.  They cater to the "high-performance" A-B-E folks.  Go to NAPA and buy an inexpensive 3/8" in-line fuel filter and see what happens.
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Leaburn Patey on September 10, 2008, 05:15:30 PM
Matt is right.
My '68 New Yorker 440  only had one fuel filter and no vapor can.
I had seen vapor cans or three line filters on newer (72-up) engines.
Diplomats,Aspens,Volare's (F,M,J bodies) had a three line filter where the third line returned to the tank.
1968 model cars have no return lines.
1970/71 seen return lines as per emissions crackdown.
Replace your fuel filter,make sure you are usin the proper "vented" gas cap,and blow out the vent lines when installing the tank.
CBarge2008-09-10 22:18:02
Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Steve on October 11, 2008, 10:22:06 AM
UPDATE!!!

I just walked up from the barn and have to share my progress with all those who've been SOOOOOO helpful.

2 weeks ago I spent from 9:00AM to 8:00PM....

* siphoning 15 gal. of Premium fuel out of the tank.
* Dropping the original tank.
* removing all the fuel line between the tank and the pump.
* bending new steel line (tricky job;9 bends between the tank and the rear wheel well).
* Installing a new sending unit in the new tank.
* mounting the new tank.

I wasn't able to finish that night, but I went to the parts store today and picked up a new fuel filter.

Crank crank crank. nothin'. No fuel in the filter
Crank crank crank. nothin'. No fuel in the filter
Crank crank crank crank crank etc. nothin'.
I am running out of time, as we are celebrating my father's birthday tonight and I have to get ready. I decide that the fuel pump is probably shot from all the crap is sucked up from the old tank.

I get out  to close the hood and I see a small amount of fuel in the filter!!!!!!! Yes!

(Fingers crossed) Crank Crank cran.......Varoom! She fires and smooths to an idle!

She lives again!!!!!! I let her run until she is warmed up and she just purrrs like a tiger (is it a 440HP after all;-).

The Delta is behind her so I couldn't take her out, but tomorrow is another day!

I don't know what the next problem to rear its head will be, but I do know that my confidence is a hell of alot higher now than it was before.

Just wanted to thank everyone here again for all their help.

Who said the internet is just for porn?


Title: Low Voltage Issues
Post by: Matt Aker on October 12, 2008, 05:27:16 AM
AWESOME! (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif)   I can't wait to you drop the top and take her for a spin!
 
(and besides, with all the photo-chopping that goes on here this place is better than porn (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif))