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Techical Discussions => General Tech => Topic started by: Tom Atkinson on May 02, 2008, 01:35:45 PM

Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Tom Atkinson on May 02, 2008, 01:35:45 PM
Kaw-Liga is running. (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif)
 
This ole Florida boy done did what ya'll suggested.
 
Went and got a new battery today, 940 CCA's.  Filled the float chambers on the carb.  2nd crank and off she ran.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif)
Saddly as said in the movie A Christmas Story when we are at our Zenith we can hit our low.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif)
Pushed the break pedal and heard a bang or pop from something other than the engine and then no resistance.  So she's a runnin but now my got no stop.  Then after running a bit she started to bang out of the carb when we hit the gas pedal and ran very rough.(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif)
Shut her down pronto and came here to report.
Thoughts and suggestions welcome.Chrysler3002008-05-02 18:41:01
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Steve on May 02, 2008, 01:49:58 PM
Yer batting a 1000 here
 
Brakes
Popped a brake line somewhere.  Look for the puddle.
 
Popping through the carb?  May have just been looking for some fuel that wasn't there yet or a piece of crud got in a jet for something.
 
Change the fuel filter
 
Do this old timers trick
History
In the olden days of manual chokes, a mechanics trick to keep the carbs clean inside was to pull on the choke while coasting at high speeds or down hills.  This caused allot of vacuum to go through all the ports and suck out the crap.
 
Essentially we want to do the same thing here.  Start it up and rev up the engine to 2000 or 3000 RPM.  Slam the choke butter fly closed tight.  Open the throttle at the same time to try to keep it running.  Before it stalls let the butter fly go and let the engine clean out.  See if it idles better then.  Repeat as necessary.
 
These "Damned Kids" (Registered expression by Polaraco.  Pat. Pend.) laugh at that stuff. . . But it sure beats the daylights out of rebuilding the carb and clears up things carb cleaner can't do.
 
Now report back to us
 
POLARACO2008-05-02 18:50:52
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Tom Atkinson on May 02, 2008, 02:04:00 PM
Thanks for all the help and advice polaraco.  I can't thank you enough.  
I know this sound cocky but I must be a bit smarter than I think .  On the break I was thinking the same thing.  No puddle yet but figure by morning I'll see it an can attack the problem.
On the carb I'll give the choke trick a try.  Will this cause the shaking and rough idle or is that a missing cylinder.

On points I need you to let me know what they are or to look for.  All I know is it has a distributor cap and wires run directly to the plugs.  Points to me are the firing points in the cap.  About three years ago my brothers father in law came over and put a timming gun on it and everything was adjusted and running fine.  I figure that is another thing I will need to learn to do.
 

Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Leaburn Patey on May 02, 2008, 05:13:16 PM
Pop the distibutor cap off.Check the points-if equipped.
You can clean and re gap them to .017 only if they ar not burned up.
If they are burned up replace them or install a Pertronix conversion kit.
Follow Polaraco's suggestions as well.
You had three plugs out before staring up? Make sure the plugs are tight in the head and wires are plugged in all the way on the plugs and distributor cap.
She may still be running on old gas that was not drained completely.
Double check all vacuum lines and if they are cracked replace them.
Rotten lines can create a vacuum leak and make the engine run rough.
s for the brakes,check the flex hoses and wheel cylinders.
Wheel cylinders can leak and take some time to show any obvious fluid leaks.
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Steve on May 02, 2008, 06:06:07 PM
Lea
 
Slow down there
 
He's going to need step by step instructions and picture support.
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Tom Atkinson on May 03, 2008, 07:08:33 AM
Tried the butterfly trick with the carb.  Got the RPMS up, found a lever on the carb which will close the butterfly and moved it.   I could hear a sucking sound and she started to die off after a few seconds.  I let go and the butterfly opened but the engine still died off.   When I tried to restart it no go and smoke came from the oil cap vent.
 
So did I just kill my car?   Is it just hot and needs to sit? 
 
 
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Steve on May 03, 2008, 08:47:08 AM
Probably blowby venting.  The PCV system may need attaention
 
No, you probably didn't blow it up.
 
Take the dip stick out and smell the oil.  See if it smells like gasoline.  If it does, you need a fuel pump.
 
Engine off. . .Lean over the carb and hit the throttle with the engine off.  See if you are getting a squirt of gas when you push on the accelerator quick.  If fuel comes out, even if it's just a dribble, there's fuel in the carb
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Tom Atkinson on May 04, 2008, 01:59:02 AM
I've checked the dip stick.  No gas smell.  I learned that trick the hard way.  Pump went bad a few years ago.  I was driving around like a rolling  smoke screen. Brother in law came for a visit and let me in on this one.
 
I'll give her a try today.  May be out of gas too.   I only put two gallons in the tank yet I can't imagine I've idled enough to burn that much.
 
Would you give me the low down on the PCV system?  I'm guessing the round disk on the side of the carb.
 
Also what do you think the smoke was?  Could it have been steam?  It didn't smell or come out in a big cloud.  Just a little wisp.
 
Chrysler3002008-05-04 06:59:43
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Steve on May 04, 2008, 04:29:41 AM
My name is Hobby
 
Oh. . Been dabbling with Mopars for about 45 years. . . .  Butch and I are OLD!
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Matt Aker on May 04, 2008, 03:03:36 PM
It sounds like all of the bases have been covered here.  You have fresh fuel, GOOD.  I'm thinkin' breaker points that are out of adjustment, just like the others have said.
 
A tight .0018 or moderately loose .0017 will do the trick.  Remember that you are setting for dwell angle, which should be around 29/30 degrees.  I still have a tach/dwell meter so I know how it should be done.  If I were close by I'd come and help you do it. 
 
Try a new set of plugs while yer in there (gapped at .0035), they are still less-than two bucks a piece for older engines.  A total tune-up sounds like it's in order...  Then proper trouble shooting can begin.
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Dan Cluley on May 05, 2008, 02:03:08 AM
I don't have any useful suggestions this point, but perhaps a picture will help make sure we are all on the same page.
 
(http://www.moparfins.com/forum/attachments/22/rebuilt_carb_april_2008.JPG)
 
 
That is a Carter AFB which is what is supposed to be on a '65 300.  Does yours look like the same sort of carb?  Yours should have a vacuum pull off for the choke.  It may be the round thing you mention.  It should be screwed to the corner of the carb above the coil (lower left of the picture)
 
The PCV valve is the round can in the upper left of the picture.  The vacuum hose that comes off the bottom front of the carb ends up over there and sucks the nasty fumes out of the engine through the valve on the passenger side valve cover.
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Herman on May 05, 2008, 02:38:43 AM
You mostlikely got a ruptured vacuumbooster-membrane along with a rusted master brake cylinder.
The leaky membrane causes your engine to run lean (false vacume) and lean running engines tend to backfire through the carb.

To check, just disconnect the hose running from the intake to the brake-booster and plug the hole at the intake.



Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Tom Atkinson on May 05, 2008, 03:41:45 AM
Thanks Matt.  I'm really green so I have a zillion questions.  
I'll get the new plugs, I just changed them before letting her sit but figure it can't hurt to get some new ones.  I think I'll change out the wires too.
On the breaker points what exaclty are these?  Part of the distributor?   
 
I've also looked at all the hoses I can see and none apper to be cracked.   I'm going to try and find the other post where I was told what hose size to get and change these out.    I still need some help with the PCV.  I looked all through my manual last night and could not find this.  I did see the round disk on the carb I though was it is actually the choke vacuum disk.   I dont' want to start monkeying around with the carb to much yet.  Still have a lot to learn and from the manual it looks pretty delicate and easy to mess up.
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Tom Atkinson on May 05, 2008, 03:47:57 AM
Thanks to all.  I didn't see the 2nd page until the post just prior to this one.
 
I'm going to see if I can get a pic of the carb on here today.   After the one posted I'm pretty sure now it's not an AFB.  It has 4bbrs and figure it was changed out when my grandfather had it converted for non led fuel.
 
I see in the pic the head covers are blue.  I take it they are standard.  The ones on my engine are black.
 
Chrysler3002008-05-05 08:49:27
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Herman on May 05, 2008, 03:59:32 AM
It's "BRAKE", not "break" (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
Although in your case it might be "broken"... (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)



Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Steve on May 05, 2008, 04:49:40 AM
Break the brake. .  What ever
 
That was 3/8 Fuel Injection hose for the booster and PCV.  I suggested 6 feet.  DO NOT SETTLE FOR ANYTHING LESS.  Stuff works perfect.  I think the smaller hose is 3/32.  I suggested you take one with you to match
 
The PCV goes into the top of the right valve cover.  65 is probably near the rear of the engine.  The hose goes into the front like Dan shows above.  The valve is not usually a problem, but neglected or improperly installed, it could be a problem.
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Tom Atkinson on May 05, 2008, 05:05:22 AM
Thanks Polaraco.  I tracked down the other post too.  I'm trying to post some pics.  It's telling me mine are to big.  I'll try the other camera and see how that goes.
 
Chrysler3002008-05-05 10:06:03
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Tom Atkinson on May 05, 2008, 09:01:09 AM
1st try at posting a photo. Ok here's my carb. 
 
Front
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk185/Chrysler300pic/Chrysler001.jpg)
 
Left side
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk185/Chrysler300pic/Chrysler002.jpg)
 
Right side
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk185/Chrysler300pic/Chrysler003.jpg)
 
Man I hope I did this right.  In preview it takes up the whole page.
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Tom Atkinson on May 05, 2008, 09:03:06 AM
Oh yaaaa baby.  (http://www.moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif)   Got it.   Looks good don't it.   Now from what I can make out the tag attached has 8569 stamped on it.
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Matt Aker on May 05, 2008, 03:50:44 PM
I already posted in the other post about yer car, but I have a little more to offer. 
 
The carb accelerator pump rod should be in the MIDDLE hole on the diaphram cam, whether a 383 OR 440.  You have a rich-running problem...  Look at the soot in the primaries...  too much fuel!
 
Take your mixture screws out completely (they should both be about 1.5 inches long with a needle point where they go into the carb).  Put them back in and gently seat them in the carb body.  Now back them out two complete revolutions (four turns of a screw driver).
 
We'll address the ignition later...  I'm here to help ya buddy. (http://moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Matt Aker on May 05, 2008, 04:03:58 PM
My objective here is to put things back to "as stock as possible"....  from there we can trouble-shoot a little better.
 
Once the carb is figured out the rest is easy.  Ignition on a '65 is like falling out of bed fer me, I drove my '66 NYer fer ten-years.
 
You have a disc-brake booster, which may be a major player in why you have no binders.  That booster will exert MORE pressure than the stock one on the single cylinder master.  The weakest point has taken the brunt and failed, prolly the master.  Look fer a correct booster if you plan on keeping the four-wheel drums.
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Steve on May 05, 2008, 04:09:36 PM
Matt
 
I have the same booster in my 300 also.  I posted about the diff on the other thread.
 
I want to correct you on the mixtures screws.  It's 1 1/2 turns not 2.  Then adjust as needed 1/8 turn at a time
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Arlen Vander Hoff on May 06, 2008, 03:35:14 AM
Not to be a "kiss up" but yeah I agree with Steve 1 and 1/2 turns of the mixture screws.
then small adjustments from there.
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Matt Aker on May 06, 2008, 04:45:24 AM
Well, when I went through my "Swartz" training Yogurt (dad) advised me to always start a little lean.  When dialed-in the two screws were usually about 1.25 to 1.5 counter-clockwise turns from thier seat.
 
We used an exhaust gas analyzer at each tail pipe also, but those instruments aren't too common these dayz.
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Tom Atkinson on May 06, 2008, 05:15:19 AM
OK to make sure I do this correclty here's what I'm going to do after you guys tell me I got it right.
 
Move the accel arm to the middle hole.  Oddly enough I remember when this was moved.  I had a guy helping and said that was the problem years ago.  He told me it would give me more power.
 
Remove the two screws on the front put back in and screw in 1 and a half turns. 
 
Now when she fires up if running rough adjust them 1/8th  at a time until running smooth. I take it I adjust both screws equally as each controls one side of the carb.  Correct?
 
I'm thinking this is a lot like when I was a kid working the needle on a cox .049 engine.
 
Should I take off the vacuum hose to the break and cap it for right now or just leave it alone?
 
As you see I am just starting my SWARTZ tainning. 
Chrysler3002008-05-06 10:16:58
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Herman on May 06, 2008, 05:44:59 AM

Quote from: Chrysler300
Remove the two screws on the front put back in and screw in 1 and a half turns.

No, (I don't know why someone mentioned to remove the screws and then put them in again) but just screw them in till they don't go any further (don't force it !), and THEN turn them out 1.5 turns.


Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Tom Atkinson on May 06, 2008, 06:55:22 AM
I'll go with the screwing them down till they stop applying no force at that point.  Back out 1.5 turns.
 
Now when she fires up how do I know if I need to monkey with them any more.  Rough idle.
 
One other thing to throw into my bag of problems.  When it was running the other day it was fast idling and would not come off it.  In the past once it was warm and I goosed it once she would calm right down.  What's sticking or am I getting way ahead of where we want to be?
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Matt Aker on May 06, 2008, 07:28:58 AM
I suggested removing the screws.  Reason being I had an AVS once where the previous owner overtightened them and broke the needles off in the body of the carb.  It's no wonder that 440 wouldn't idle smoothly... (http://moparfins.com/forum/smileys/smiley18.gif)  (it's amazing it ran at all...)
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Steve on May 06, 2008, 08:22:17 AM
Once you have it warmed up and not on fast idle, you can adjust the mixtures screws 1/8 of a turn either way until it smooths out.  If they are out too far, the car will run richer and you sacrifice fuel mileage.
 
As far as the fast idle is concerned. .  .
 
Make sure the choke is open all the way.  On the side of the carb, I think on the left side, there is a cam with a rod connected to it.  One of the idle screws goes to it.  It could be just stuck from sitting.  But if the choke isn't closing, it will stay on fast.  If the cam is disengaged and it still runs fast, check to be sure the throttle is closing all the way to the idle stop. (Idle Screw)  If it is, the idle screw may be set too high.  Take a screw driver and slow it down.  I think the idle should be around 650 without looking it up.
 
Is it running decent now?  I haven't heard.  We still have to talk about the points.
 
Anybody have a picture of a point distributor handy?
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Tom Atkinson on May 06, 2008, 10:03:59 AM
I haven't tried running it since Saturday when I choked it off.   Had a derby party to go to that afternoon and spent Sunday with the kids getting mom her mothers day gift.   Yesterday I messed with the brakes.      Tonight I may have time to play with the master cylinder cap for a few mins before heading out with the daughter to her soccer practice.  
 
It's a busy life I lead but a good one too.
 
OK now I'm mixed on the carb.   Do I have this right,  Take out the screws and make sure the points are OK.  Then screw back in all the way just until they won't turn any more.  To much and they will be damaged from I'm reading.  Back out 1.5 turns.  Adjust per Polaraco once running on slow idle.
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Tom Atkinson on May 06, 2008, 10:21:58 AM
Looking back over the post about the break and this one on the carb someone felt if the booster membrane is gone it could be giving the carb a bad vacuum.   Should I take the vacuum hose off the booster and plug it while working on the carb?   
 
I also saw in the other area on carbs these old ones don't do so well with current gas.  Should I stick with the 93 gas or is this not critical to what I'm doing right now?
 
Chrysler3002008-05-06 15:23:25
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Herman on May 06, 2008, 12:07:57 PM

If the boostermembrane is shot, then your engine might run bad if there's a vacuumleak in the booster.
So, to make sure the carb itself is OK, it's indeed best to take off the hose and plug the inlet at the carb.
(Edit: Looking at a pic you posted in another topic, I think your brakebooster is connected to the intake manifold. So plug that one. It also seams the PCV-valve is just 'resting' on the valvecover-tube.


Very old fuel can cause a bad running engine aswell. With very old I'm thinking of 5-10 year old fuel, when still present in the tank. But you should be aware of the by the funky smell of it.

BigBlockMopar2008-05-06 17:11:33
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Tom Atkinson on May 06, 2008, 01:25:59 PM
Take a look at my pic's in the brake section.  Mystery solved.  I'll be plugging the hose for now.
On the gas it's fresh.  I had the tank pumped and cleaned last week and put in some 93 octaine 2 gallons.   I'm gonna put more in tomorrow and tackle the carb.  I can't imagine I've already burned two gallons but might have. It is a big engine and was dry.
Where again is the PCV?  Is it the connection in the top left?
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Tom Atkinson on May 06, 2008, 01:34:11 PM
Check that on the PCV valve.  I'm talking about the fuel line.   My next guess is the hose coming into the carb on the front which runs to the head cover.   If that is it I'm good to go in it is hooked and the hose looks good.
 
Another thing I noticed is the two front idle screws are visibly at diffrent heights.  So fur sure need to take out, check and put back in.
Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Herman on May 06, 2008, 01:35:42 PM
Yep. The PCV-valve is in the pass.-side valvecover, and is connected to the front of the carb.

Title: Kaw-Liga is runing.
Post by: Tom Atkinson on May 06, 2008, 01:44:50 PM
Yes!   I'm starting to know enough to be dangerous.