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Author Topic: Chrylser & Fiat  (Read 2282 times)

Jacques

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ex-Mopars 1967 Chrysler Newport Custom Coupe, 1973 Imperial LeBaron 2dr hardtop, 1973 Imperial LeBaron 4dr Hardtop, 1971 Plymouth Sport Fury 2 door hardtop

dana44

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Chrylser & Fiat
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2013, 07:10:43 AM »

That is a good article. Thanks.
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Steve

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Chrylser & Fiat
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2013, 02:55:38 PM »

Yes.  For what I could get out of it. . . .


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dana44

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Chrylser & Fiat
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2013, 08:13:46 PM »

Kind of the same thing anyone with a little bit of automotive knowledge could have done like they did with Mitsu over the years, just not given to a foreign entity. It is a shame it is the "Big Two" now, but that's OK, I have enough knowledge myself to build what I want from what is available and not have to worry about giving money to a foreign company I don't like.
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Steve

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Chrylser & Fiat
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2013, 09:52:39 PM »

I just heard Ma Mopar pushed Toyoyo out of the #3 spot
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dana44

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Chrylser & Fiat
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2013, 05:25:35 AM »

That must be the newest news out there I haven't seen, they had just regained the number four spot after two months of being number five, so getting back to number three is quite the accomplishment. My whole point is, yeah, it was a bad situation after DBAG stripped Chrysler and all that, but how is it they were able to give, literally give, an American car company to a foreign company, give them a giant loan, and everyone that was invested in Chrysler get zilch, and the retirement union get what, 48 percent of ownership and it be legal. Welcome to FiatChrysler. Not much better than DaimlerChrylser I say.
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Jacques

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Chrylser & Fiat
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2013, 07:26:17 AM »

Besides, it's debatable how "american" e.g. a US-spec ford or GM is, hejo in mexico with chinese parts. But the good part is, Chrysler survived and seems to recover pretty well with a much more dedicated partner than db.


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ex-Mopars 1967 Chrysler Newport Custom Coupe, 1973 Imperial LeBaron 2dr hardtop, 1973 Imperial LeBaron 4dr Hardtop, 1971 Plymouth Sport Fury 2 door hardtop

dana44

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« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2013, 07:35:49 AM »

I can agree with that part, yes, but I still think it would be better as ChryslerFiat than FiatChrysler. I don't mind the Mexican parts, they have some very good natural metal elements down there, superior even to the American elements in many cases. Not so wild about the Chinese stuff though.
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Jacques

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Chrylser & Fiat
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2013, 08:10:31 AM »

I think almost every car nowadays has components from all over the globe. Fiat is "italian" but the cars are also assembled in Serbia etc. Toyota is "japanese" but has assembly platsn in the US, UK etc.

Fiat is of course pretty unknown on the US-market, but in Europe, it was in some ways similar to Chrysler, nice looking products with some issues. Fiat worked hard on those issues the past decade or so, and also put a lot of effort in the design of its bread&butter-brands (Fiat & Alfa Romeo).

Fiat also realised it needed a large partner in order to survive. Years before the merger, the CEO already said he expected the global market would be with 5 rather than 10 big players, and that in the situation at the time, Fiat would not be one of them.

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dana44

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Chrylser & Fiat
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2013, 08:57:40 AM »

That's the same line of thought with Chrysler back in the '90s, a global partner overseas, other than Mitsubishi. I originally thought he MB merger of equals was a grand idea, and it did take a couple years to figure out it was a leaching off of Chrysler problem, not a cymbiant merger. Could have been, and probably would have been a good deal had it been done that way, but it wasn't. Thing is, Sergio knows what the American/Canadian/Mexican type of car is like, the Germans didn't. European and Asians drive different cars than what we have, so to say this is a global design doesn't work, so stuffing tiny Fiat engines into big American cars doesn't work as well as they expected.  At this point I am on the downside of neutral on the merger, especially the way it went down. I look at it as, even though the economy collapsed, there had to be one auto CEO that with all the negotiating and loans to GM and Chrysler, it should have been able to make it back (again) without having to give it to a foreign entity to start with.  Guess we will see what the future really has to hold with products coming out and go from there.
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Jacques

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Chrylser & Fiat
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2013, 10:15:27 AM »

MB dismembered Chrysler and threw away the parts it thought useless. MB complains the merger cost them a lot of money, but are somehow unable to pinpoint the culprit

I understand that from your perspective, you would prefer to keep ownership of Chrysler 100% US, but let's face it, GM and Ford are very strongly represented on most continents, with factories, lots of dealerships, etc.

On the other hand, Chrysler is really tiny (or even non-existent) outside the US. And I doubt if the US-market is big enough to sustain a carmaker of the size of Chrysler, considering the developments costs of new platforms, safety features, etc.

Of course the very small fiat-engines will not help in a 300 or Grand Cherokee, but the 4-cilinders would do a fine job in the 200 and similar cars (a car size that is very common in Europe as well). Especially regarding fuel efficiency, Fiat has the edge over Chrysler engines with the same displacement. The 2-cilinder miniature engines are indeed restricted to minicars like the 500 or Panda.

The other way around, the 300-platform has been used by Lancia for its top-of-the-line sedan.

But what really trickles the imagination, what if they put one of the other Fiat-owned engines (like a Maserati-V8) in a nice Mopar? That would make one nasty new 'cuda!

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ex-Mopars 1967 Chrysler Newport Custom Coupe, 1973 Imperial LeBaron 2dr hardtop, 1973 Imperial LeBaron 4dr Hardtop, 1971 Plymouth Sport Fury 2 door hardtop

dana44

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« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2013, 11:31:18 AM »

Well, there is talk that the twin turbo 3.6 in the Maserati is the 3.6 Pentastar with a few personal modifications, like hand building the engines and the likes. The American cars are heavy and safety standard requirements is a very big culprit in what can actually be done here. a 3000lb car here would weigh about 2200lbs over there. It is not totally a matter of the little engines and technology having to be from foreign countries, it's more that they want to simply take away everything that is known and thow it out the window and take credit for everything, forgetting the history and innovations done by Chrysler over an almost century. When things like BMW asks Chrysler engineers to help them design the Mini Cooper head so it works, something just doesn't add up in the "I'm smarter and have better engineers than you do", category. Look at the great synergy between Mitsu and Chrysler back in the 80s and 90s. That is how companies should work together. New technologies shared to function in each region is based on adaptabilities of that environment, not take my design and forget your design, mine is good, yours is bad, mentality.
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Jacques

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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2013, 03:10:25 AM »

The safety standards certainly do not add 800lbs to a 2200ls car. In Europe, there's tough competition among manufacturers to achieve the best ratings, and there's a lot of new safety features coming from European companies (Volvo, Renault, MB,...). Like I said, midrange cars of similar size to the Dart, 200 or Malibu are extremely common here, and have not much weight advantage over their US-cousins.


One thing we can agree on, it gives interesting discussions!
Sjak Brak2013-10-22 09:26:13
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ex-Mopars 1967 Chrysler Newport Custom Coupe, 1973 Imperial LeBaron 2dr hardtop, 1973 Imperial LeBaron 4dr Hardtop, 1971 Plymouth Sport Fury 2 door hardtop

dana44

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Chrylser & Fiat
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2013, 05:23:54 AM »

Compared to the DBAG merger of equals, yes, this partnership is a lot better, I can agree with that, and the LX platform for the Lancia is a very good example of that. The weight difference is around 600lbs, actually, and that makes for driving around with three extra adults in a vehicle not designed for the mileage numbers.
 
You are right about the 19' land yachts, because you keep buying them up!
 
I am a little old fashioned when it comes to brands and the likes, just rubs me the wrong way that something with such great American history is in the position it is now, that's all.
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Jacques

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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2013, 08:46:28 AM »

I understand your feelings regarding the brand-stuff, but on the other hand, look on the bright side: Chrysler lives and kept its personality. Well, lets be happy VW didnt buy it, look how they killed Skoda. OK Skoda still exists, but its role is limited to designing grilles and assembling cars from the VW-partsbins....

Just looked up the weight of the Lancia Thema (with Pentastar V6) and the 300 V8, both cars weigh exactly the same actually: 1801kg (= around 4000lbs) (the diesel Lancia is considerably heavier.)

Or other example, the Voyager/T&C is also sold by/as Lancia, the Italians have been struggling for many years to put out a decent minivan, and now they finally have one.

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