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Author Topic: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.  (Read 6946 times)

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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2010, 03:23:26 PM »


A 62? Now ya went and screwed it up. Silly Admin!

I had my plumbing running up front. If I put a little effort into it the pipe would not have been visible form in front of the car. Since I wasn't concerned with appearance I made it as easy as possible.

Talk to a local turbo shop. Find out if they have junk parts (cracked housings and such) that you can grab for free or close to it. You can stick it everywhere and see what works best.

Again, I will strongly advise you to avoid the Audi turbos. You may only want them active to 3500 rpm but keep in mind that the engine will never spin faster than that with a load. On the dyno my larger turbos choked the engine to 4900 rpm. With the throttle flat on the floor the engine couldn't make any more rpm. The turbos were that restrictive. Your engine won't even make it that far.

If you shop around you can sometimes pay less for twins than for a large single. A pair of old Grand National turbos would be great.

The remote mount would certainly clean things up for you. Run the exhaust back to a single or twins under the back of the car. You would need to run tubing back to the engine and an oil return pump.

feets2010-12-15 20:38:33
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firedome

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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2010, 04:02:28 PM »




I agree with Bawb. But for what you want I still maintain a
supercharger makes more sense, you are talking maximizing performance
at 1000-4000 rpms, not 5500+. TWIN T-4s would do an excellent job as
well, if you want to turbo, and the relevant math can prove it.



Every aspect of turbo and engine performance can be quantified,
measured, calculated and extrapolated. Funny how those who are unable
to understand it, or are unwilling to do so, are the first to discount
the science and the value of using it. Seat of the pants my azz.... the
typical NASCAR shop these days looks more like a NASA lab, because they
are smart enough to employ empirical data to get the performance they want.


firedome2010-12-15 21:06:25
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Jason Goldsack

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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2010, 04:23:04 PM »

This makes for great reading.. LOL...

People trying to show that they are smarter than each other is really entertaining..


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Jason

(Eileen)1965 Chrysler Windsor, 361/727/2.76 16.49 @ 86 mph

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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2010, 06:04:33 PM »



Quote from: firedome


I agree with Bawb. But for what you want I still maintain a
supercharger makes more sense, you are talking maximizing performance
at 1000-4000 rpms, not 5500+. TWIN T-4s would do an excellent job as
well, if you want to turbo, and the relevant math can prove it.



Every aspect of turbo and engine performance can be quantified,
measured, calculated and extrapolated. Funny how those who are unable
to understand it, or are unwilling to do so, are the first to discount
the science and the value of using it. Seat of the pants my azz.... the
typical NASCAR shop these days looks more like a NASA lab, because they
are smart enough to employ empirical data to get the performance they want.




pssst..... I'm running T4 turbos. Didja miss that?

There are lotsa different sizes of T4 turbos. The little guys on Saabs won't flow enough. If they did, the 2.1 liter engine wouldn't spool them until a really high rpm.
I still say a T4 60-1 compressor with a P-trim turbine wheel would do it. I'm just not sure about the turbine housing.
My Turbonetics T3 Stage III .96 A/R housing and Stage III wheel will flow more than a typical small T4.

Doing a little digging, I found that the
B205R and B235L/R use Mitsubishi TD04HL-15T-5.

Here's a compressor map I found:



That's a high speed compressor. How small is the turbine housing to get the speeds that high with a small engine and not present excessive lag?
feets2010-12-15 23:06:35
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Steve

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« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2010, 08:47:10 PM »

Ey Yi Yi Yi Yi  What have I done?!?   
 
Hell I could do propane and water injection!
 
Bob. . None of that stuff is low maint.  I want something that is self sustaining
 
POLARACO2010-12-16 01:52:02
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Jason Goldsack

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« Reply #51 on: December 16, 2010, 03:52:05 AM »

How about this.. LOL



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Jason

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« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2010, 06:09:02 AM »

Quote from: POLARACO
How about these?
 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270677057036&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
 
 
So close! If the compressor was a T4 60 it would be perfect. The T3 is too small and you'd send it into surge.
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Steve

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« Reply #53 on: December 16, 2010, 07:05:29 AM »

Model: T3/T4, 60 trim 0.60 a/r FORD type compressor with hi flow, twin scroll, P trim turbines
 
 
But  But  But That's what you told me to find. . . .    
 
What am i missing?  Not sure what they are now.  I see references to T3 and T4
 
POLARACO2010-12-16 12:07:01
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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2010, 08:21:50 AM »

Those are T3/T4. You need T4/T3. Confused yet?
The T3 and T4 turbos are mix-n-match things because they physically bolt together. You have to think of turbos as two different parts. The compressor is going to feed air to the engine. The turbine has to pass all the exhaust from the engine and use it to drive the compressor.
 

You need a T4 compressor and a BIG T3 turbine or a T4 P-trim turbine.
That set is backwards. They have T3 compressors and a T4 turbines.
If you're going to hide them out back you can use a smaller turbine. The gasses will be much cooler and require less room to work. The compressor will need to be the same size as one mounted up front. In fact, if we had any info on the turbines of the infamous Saab turbos you might be able to get away with stuffing a pair of them under the car by upgrading the compressor side. It depends on how small the turbines really are. feets2010-12-16 13:25:51
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Steve

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« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2010, 11:28:37 AM »

    
 
I was planning on both in the back if I had to go that route, which is probable.
 
When you say surging, are you saying from too much air?   Would waste gates help solve that?
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« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2010, 12:12:58 PM »

Surging means the compressor is trying to move too much air. It actually stacks up in the blades and can't get out. That means air stops moving entirely. Nothing comes out. The engine stalls momentarily. As soon as that happens, the air driving the turbo stops. Pretty basic there. No air in = no air out. The engine cutting out drops the compressor speed and it will start moving air again. It happens pretty quickly.
Look at the chart above. The vertical part of the chart is how thick the air is. The horizontal line is the volume of the air moving. The line on the left of the bubble is where the compressor will surge. The other lines are where the turbo is rated for efficiency. That little bubble in the middle is it's happy place. That's where you want to be. The farther you get from that island, the hotter the air gets. Once you're off the scale, you're making more heat than boost. That's detonation city. An engine doesn't like breathing 200+ degree air.
 
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« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2010, 01:34:56 PM »

So waste gates are out Huh?
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« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2010, 05:29:50 PM »

Wastegates are definitely in! You need them on a gasoline engine.
Without the WG the turbo will continue accelerating until one of three things happen:

1) The turbine wheel matches speed with the exhaust velocity coming through the turbine housing. Very unlikely.
2) The compressor stalls and air stops moving through the turbo. This does happen in the real world.
3) You boost your engine into oblivion and end up with 600 pounds of scrap metal between your fenders. Most likely (and most expensive) outcome.

If you try to use a WG to bypass a small turbine housing you risk losing control of the turbo. In this situation it's possible to outflow the wastegate and not have enough reserve capacity to regulate turbine speed. That leads you right back to the three consequences above.

Some diesels do not have wastegates. My 92 D250 is a fine example. However, you're now talking about compression fired oil burners and not spark ignited gasoline engines. Getting into that will just end up confusing some folks so let's not go there.

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Steve

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« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2010, 05:42:49 PM »

Heh
 
I got the diesels down.  That's probably why I am having so much difficulty with the gas.
 
When I was asking about the waste gates, I meant on those bargan basement turbos I am looking at.  It says 4ord V8, but does that mean PowerJoke or a treeoh2????
 
If they are for gas, I am wondering if a gate will solve the problem on them.  But it appears you thought about that.  I knew I had to have a gate, I won't run a Dizzy without one either.  But today it's VGT's.  I actually envy you and Brian.  You have good engines.  I have a 6.7 with all this Horse dung on it.  Well, lets just say it looks like it's there.  I am pushing 26 MPG out of it though
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