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Author Topic: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.  (Read 7177 times)

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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2010, 05:31:24 AM »

You guys need to stop now before someone wastes money on your ideas.
 
Saab turbos are too small for the 440. You would need 3 or 4 of them to even get things going. Your son the physicist needs to study thermodynamics a little better if he thinks those turds will spool a 7.2 liter engine. While being perfect for a 2.1 liter engine, two of them would be okay on a 273 and a bit small for a 318.  Forget a 440. My original turbine housings will out flow ANY Saab 4 cylinder turbo. They still choked the engine at 4800 rpm. That's a FACT. The engine would not turn more than 4800 rpm because the turbos ran out of flow and became a potato in the tailpipe.
 
Dana, drop the Commander. I don't mean to sound rude but you obviously aren't familiar with EFI. A 1 bar MAP sensor will not read over atmospheric pressure. It is used to determine the amount of vacuum in the engine. The sensor has no ability to read as little as 1 psi boost. 4 psi boost can lead to detonation and shattered pistons. 8 psi with no additional fueling will not be possible. A 2 bar MAP is MINIMUM for a turbocharged engine. Chrysler 2.2 T1 engines had 2 bar MAP sensors. That's why they'd get into "boost cut" if you hit 15 psi. If you're stuck on a factory style intake get a boost prepped carb or build one yourself. Do not guess at EFI until you know exactly how they work.
The Cummins turbo will not work properly. It doesn't matter what the rpm of the original application was. What matters is air flow and density. You can get away with a couple HX35 turbos on small blocks but they can't handle the volume of air demanded by a 440. Go play with those charts listed on page 2. Anytime the air flow gets outside the lines on those charts bad things happen. The turbo will hit surge and stop moving air. I've done that when I blew a boost line off a wastegate and one of my turbos tried to feed my 440 a whopping 22 psi boost. The air got REALLY hot then *poof* air stoped moving. Pressure waves are generated that stop air movement. Not only is that good for cylinders approaching the temperature of the sun but it also kills performance. As in the car quits moving.
 
I don't intend to be a kill joy or a horse's ass. I was asked to join the forum because of this topic. I have been playing with turbo cars since 1991. That includes 2.2 turbos, 5.9 Cummins, blow through carbed engines, and fuel injected turbo engines. I'm a hobbiest that has very little money to play with. Everything I do has to be researched and debugged as much as possible before I can drop a dime on it because I can't afford to waste that dime.
I've stated what works. While I can certainly appreciate digging around and trying to find a way to save money and make it work, I've given you the minimums. Please learn from my mistakes.
I will do everything I can to help you guys. It's in my nature. In fact, if you're near DFW I'll help put it together. I've got a machine shop at home and make my own parts where possible.
 
 
feets2010-12-15 10:41:00
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Steve

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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2010, 06:47:18 AM »

[/QUOTE]





 
Yeah
 
Looking at some Audi used ones.  Plenty of those around
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« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2010, 07:37:43 AM »

I doubt the Audi turbos will be big enough to use in pairs. You also need to get your hands on some compressor maps to see how they fit the application.
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« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2010, 07:39:55 AM »


And we've been tweaking/racing Turbos since 1979 with the first 900
Turbo we had. Nice try, but actually the relevant field for determining
flow efficiency is Fluid Dynamics. Air is a fluid.  Thermodynamics
is useful for calculating heat retention, heat loss and rejection, and
overall thermal efficiency. Consider Newton's 1st law, and you'd use an
air cooled engine.  All this stuff is  required, with 6 yrs
of advanced math,
for a Post-doc in Particle Physics.  However, if you'd take time
to read carefully, I was referring to knowledge of FI. Sorry, but
Edelbrock is Low Tech. Design, build and program custom EFI chips?
fairly simple stuff compared  to running the worlds' biggest
Relativistic Heavy Ion Supercollider (RHISC) at Brookhaven Labs.
MegaSquirt is a highly flexible readily available and very effective
systme for those who don't care to roll their own. Can a 440 lump turn
10,000+ rpm?  What's it's instrumented BMEP? It's not the liters,
and not just  how much air it can pump, but where you want the
power and everything must be integrated.  I believe calculations
would show a  properly designed
dual T-4 low pressure system would handle what Steve wants 
to do. Steve's not making a drag car, he's  looking for a bit
extra low end and he won't NEED a huge amount of blow. Scientists don't
guess, they use sensors and instruments, collect the data,  and
the math tells you what to do.  However no sense in all that, we've got the world expert here now!




firedome2010-12-15 12:53:35
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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2010, 09:33:59 AM »

I guess you're the world expert? You do know that heat helps drive turbos too, right? There's energy in heat (obviously). Conversely, there is a loss of horsepower with heat. When you start cooking the air you breathe things get ugly. True, knowledge of fluid dynamics would be just as handy.
You can run all the theoretical BS you want. Read all your textbooks and play with all the nifty toys. You still need to know what you're dealing with in the real world. I know people that are packing MENSA level IQs but couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the directions were on the bottom.
Even my good friend who ran nuclear power plants and their cooling systems came to me to help figure out how to cool down his 65 Coronet. We sat down and worked that stuff out. Sometimes real world experience trumps all the world's book knowledge.


Now, please show me a compressor map for the Saab T4 turbos.
 
Where's all this Edelbrock stuff coming from? Who's running Edelbrock stuff? I've got Edelbrock heads and a couple old carbs in my garage but that's it. If you're referring to my EFI, it's an outdated but rather effective Electomotive TEC II with the ability to tune on the fly with the laptop. It'll handle 12,000 rpm but I'm not interested in building anything that will turn that number.
Megasquirt is a fairly attractive system. Since I haven't messed with it I can't comment.
 
Steve isn't making a drag car. Neither am I. The hot rod is about as low as you're going to go with a turbo 440. 8 psi on a stock engine in a street car. Does that sound familiar? Gee, Steve wants something just like that. I've been running one since 2001. I've added heads and EFI as time went by but the bottom end is still there.
 
If you've been running turbo engines since 1979 then you should know that getting too small of a turbine will choke an engine.  
What size turbines are on the Saab units? Do yo agree that a turbine that will be responsive on a factory production 2.1 liter engine will be too small to handle the flow from a 3.6 liter engine with a similar rpm range and somewhat lower BMEP? It would spool instantly then become a cork around 4000 rpm. The turbine speeds would probably be in excess of 150,000 rpm and the compressor would be way out of it's range. Two of them will work on a very small V8 but simply can't handle the flow of a stock 440. Please prove this statement wrong. The 440 is not as efficient as the 2.1. That means it's going to be moving more air to make the same power. 
My T4/T3 hybrids work fine with a 440. They were designed exactly for that purpose. They are the absolute minimum for a 440 with a 5500 rpm redline. Anything that flows less on the hot side will choke the engine. I found that out the hard way.
 
I'm not the world expert. However, unlike you guys I have real world experience with the EXACT scenario Steve wants.
I don't mind discussing these things but there's no reason for pounding your chest or getting nasty. I was told that kind of activity didn't happen over here.
 
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Snotty

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« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2010, 09:51:57 AM »

Quote from: feets
I don't mind discussing these things but there's no reason for pounding your chest or getting nasty. I was told that kind of activity didn't happen over here.
 
For the most part you heard correctly, but every now and then....
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« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2010, 10:27:37 AM »

Feets, thanks for answering my question and why the Cummins wouldn't work, even though I did give one reason why I thought it wouldn't work. Size and volume of air, even at low pressure, is the main problem with the 440. Yeah, a single turbo works fine for a 2.4 Turbo, but even at half the pressure, yeah, it will still choke the engine. I see that a MINIMUM sized engine to find used turbos off of would be essentially a 3.6, and then use two of them, not too many of those around, possibly the new Ford, but it is already a dual turbo setup to work, so then you would need four of them, and we are right back where we started, four turbos to feed the engine to start with. Even with the T4/T3, you are still talking twins, right? And thanks for correcting the Commando and T1 turbo setup MAP bar setup, thought it was a one bar, not a two bar to start with.
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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2010, 11:46:48 AM »

The T4/T3 hybrids I use are twins. To go single you'd need something the size of a T76 or S400. Getting the turbine housing correct on those is pretty easy but it's hard to find a compressor wheel that will work with the low horsepower levels we're discussing. Most of those turbos are used on higher horsepower cars and they're not happy passing lower volumes of air. feets2010-12-15 16:47:10
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« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2010, 11:49:54 AM »

Quote from: firedome
How about a supercharger. Easier plumbing and more low end power, which is where you want it on a car like that. Just get one off a Park Ave or Bonnie SSI.
 

 
 
Twin superchargers?
 
One of those blowers would probably be a restriction on a 440 at 5000 rpm.
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Steve

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« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2010, 12:23:29 PM »



Easy boys. . . . 
 
I have a BSEE, but the seat has made more sense than the pencil in allot of cases. . .  That's why I have forgotton almost all the therories I learned 40+ years ago in school.  KISS seems to be the most useful therory I have ever learned.
 
I understand the thermodynamics. . .  The understanding of them comes in handy.  And as in Fluid Power, restriction, such as intercoolers can hurt me too. 
 
I have been thinking about mounting the turbo similar as the Mo Home unit, exhaust plumbing it, and running the air plunbing through the wheel wells as there is plenty of room in there to work with.  I can go over the right tire, into the front for an intercooler, then out and over the right wheel to a bonnet on the carb, injection system, whatever.
 
 
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« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2010, 12:43:09 PM »

Quote from: POLARACO


Easy boys. . . . 
 
 
DOG PILE ON THE ADMIN!!! Let's get 'im boys!
 

 
But seriously now, you've got plenty of room to work with. I've been looking under the hood of the Imperial. With all the stuff it's got I'll have a fun time running twins up there without disturbing things.
Think about moving the battery to the trunk, eliminating the vapor canister (if equipped) and run twins up front. You can see that I can my driver's side exhaust over the turbo and then down so it wouldn't interfere with the engine accessories. You can run the boost down the front and into an intercooler if you like. At 8 psi there won't be much of a gain but you'll be addicted to boost and turn it up later. We all fall into that trap.
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« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2010, 02:08:40 PM »

Quote from: feets
  
 
DOG PILE ON THE ADMIN!!! Let's get 'im boys!
 

 
They've tried already.  Get in line
 
Remember, there is less room in a 62 because it is up to 6" narrower than the Fusies.  Not to mention, serviceability.  I'm getting too old to be crawling under these things to change spark plugs anymore.  Running the air plumbing through the fender wells cleans up the clutter, but states "TURBO" when people look at it.  I could forego the intercooler and just run a straight pipe around to the other side.  Between the breeze in the fender well and the air pushing through the front, the air will be nice and cool.  I also need to put my intake out there to get the coldest air I can.  Made a big difference on Polaraco.
 
Honestly, 2 turbos are going to be too expensive for me.  A T7 is $1500 while the two audi turbos are far less.  But you are right, they could be too small, but they are T4's as well.  It looks like a left and right turbo with wastegates.  I believe they came off an Audi 1.8.  Since I only want them to be useful up to 3500 RPM,
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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2010, 02:18:51 PM »



Now ya went and done it! You made me start thinking. That's usually dangerous.
When I got home from work I grabbed my junk turbo and popped the hood on the Imperial. Here's a quickie idea on the placement of twins. If you want to do a single, just work with the passenger side.
Keep in mind I haven't got a clue what year your NYer is. If it's a Fusey, you're golden. If not, see if you can adapt these ideas.

The passenger front is the easiest place to stuff a turbo, especially if you don't have a smog pump. The alternator sits fairly high. You can route a manifold around or under it. That makes for an easy exhaust run to a turbo. The exhaust off the turbo can run back beside the engine mount. It will be under the spark plugs and out of the way. Making a quick dip around the torsion bar leaves you under the car and home free. A mechanical fuel pump would be in the way but that's not a major concern. You should really change to an electric fuel pump and boost referenced regulator, especially with EFI.
Here's a quick and dirty photo:



Moving to the driver's side, the space really opens up if you move the battery to the trunk. That leaves a perfect place to plop a turbo. There's very little to get in the way.
Here's that side's quick and dirty pic:



The down pipe out of the turbine would go up and over the exhaust
manifold and snake it's way under the car. It will clear the steering
stuff and the spark plugs. Note that I had to cut the inner fender to fit the turbo. That won't be necessary on a C-body.



In the above image, please note the VERY POOR placement of the wastegate. Space is at a premium in that car. If I moved the WG forward for a nice smooth air flow the hood and WG would hit. If I laid the WG to one side or the other I would not be able to reach the bolts on the WG, turbo, or both. That's why I strongly suggest internal wastegates for moderate power setups. You're making compromises so the little bit of power you might lose will never be felt.

My original setup was much better for flow but would not fit once I moved the engine back.



Back to the subject...
If you plan on running a single, take the driver's side exhaust forward, across the bottom of the engine compartment, and up into the turbo.

On a Fusey and a Slab you have openings between the fender liners and radiator support. That gives you a perfect place for air filters and to run the pipes out of the compressors. You can merge them together out front either for an intercooler or the single pipe headed to the carb/throttle body. I opened an existing hole in the core support for the intake pipe. On the Imperial I will have room to go around it.

If you don't have the evap canister, vacuum reservoirs, or A/C the install gets even easier.

Does any of that look like it would work on your car?
feets2010-12-15 19:33:25
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Steve

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« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2010, 03:12:11 PM »

Nope
 
My turbo is going to have to be higher and forward more.  My heater box is twice as big as yours and the fire wall is straighter.
 
See if these help you.  This is a 300H, but it's still an RB and the space is almost the same.
http://www.moparfins.com/Chrysler/62/1962_300H_Convertible/1962_Chrysler_300H_Engine_Right.htm
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Stitcherbob

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« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2010, 03:19:14 PM »

Steve....do yourself a favor and forget the turbos....just a little squirt of nitrous when you need it for passing and the 62 will giddy-up just fine......no need to spend half the national deficit on that car when the other projects need to be budgeted too .....


and shame on you guys for encouraging him!





and where the heck is the Voice of Reason , Stanley lately????? You're dropping the ball man!   He's probably >>>>>>







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