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Author Topic: Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.  (Read 7154 times)

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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2010, 07:44:53 PM »





Quote from: stitcherbob
amazingly, you're not the only one......

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59536.0

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/f19/99897-440-big-block-turbo-info-needed-2.html


http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f11/f54/195565-turbo-440-rv.html


SKIP THE DRAW THROUGH TURBOS!!!
Pretend you never saw those photos and your life will be much happier.
Those turbo RVs made a little more low end grunt but they will not support higher horsepower. More important, they are a potential bomb under your hood. The fuel drawn through the carb makes a nice volatile mixture. Spin that mix through a 100,000 rpm compressor and now you've got a pressurized volatile mixture looking for a leak. If it gets out and hits the exhaust manifold *poof* goes the engine compartment.

You'll notice that VERY FEW of the 81 Turbo Trans Am cars are turbocharged today. Those 301s were PIGS and a real embarrassment to Pontiac. The 403 BOP engines (6.6 TA) would run circles around them.

Just for clarification, on the RV turbo 440 the driver's side exhaust manifold dumps down normally. That exhaust pipe runs under the engine and into the bottom of the passenger exhaust manifold. The passenger side exits upward into the turbo. Think about that. Everybody ditches the log manifolds because they are a heavy restriction. Those RVs had ALL of the exhaust going through the passenger manifold. Now how well is THAT going to work for you? 1970s engineering at it's laughable peak.

You can not run B/RB manifolds upside down. The "log" part of the manifold that humps up and burns our valve cover gaskets will then hump down and block the spark plug holes. It's physically impossible to mouth them upside down with spark plugs installed.
Forget about trying to mount them right side up but on the wrong sides because the outlet hits the engine mounts and steering box.

I went through many different possibilities when building the hot rod. I'm CHEAP so I tried everything. In the end, I made my own manifolds.
If you turbocharge, do yourself a favor. Skip the fancy external wastegates and get a turbo with the WG built in. It's so much easier to build around and you're not looking for a 9 second car.

feets2010-12-13 00:58:41
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Snotty

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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2010, 10:27:21 AM »

Quote from: POLARACO
I was thinking about sticking a turbocharger in the New Yorker.  That ought to get that sucker moving.
 
 
OK, you got me on this one Steve.  Other than a nice gimmick I don't get your intention; that car moves quite well on its own, as most big block Mopars do.
 
Except for racing purposes, I've always had the opinion that turbos on passenger cars existed to make a 4 banger feel like a V-8.  If you have the latter the former is not necessary.
 
JMO, it is your car.... 
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Jason Goldsack

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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2010, 11:08:45 AM »

If I had the money.. there would be a turbo on the Windsor... for sure

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Steve

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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2010, 02:17:21 PM »

[color=#ffcc00 size=7 face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Hello Feets[/color]
[color=#ffcc00 size=7 face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Welcome[/color]
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Steve

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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2010, 02:49:15 PM »

OK!  I see you are using the Edelbrock EFI setups.  I had one of those for this car, but it disappeared.  Let's not talk about it
 
I agree the suck through leaves allot to be desired, especially the safety aspects of it.  The mixture is quite volitle going through thhere.  But the good parts it, well maybe, the air fuel mixture is vaporized into a gas.  That alone is better combustion.
 
You gave me some leads on where to look for turbos.  I'm thinking I might have the exhaust manifold modified and put the turbo right where you see it on that Mo Home unit.  However, I'm not clear about how it's powered.  You are saying the left manifold pressure is driving the turbo?   MMMMMM   Y pipe on the right side and 3" single exhaust.  Unless you think 2 1/2" is enough. . .
 
Now that we're through that part, let me address what the purpose will be.   Snotty sold me this car 8 years ago.  For reasons, I am just getting to it now.  I originally had it slated for the Edlebrock MPI system.  I was one of the first to buy an RB system back then.    My mission is to make this as fuel efficient as possible.  The power I'll be getting is just a bonus.  I'm already going to install a 518 trans.  Moving more air into the system helps.  Once I have this part figured out, I have to think about the best cam for this.  I already built a Torque Monster in Polaraco. 
 
Here's the plan. . . 
Establish a turbo to meet the CFM/HP needs at 8 PSI Max.  Using a small turbo to reduce lag.
decide on a location in the car and determine how much intercooling will be needed.  At 8 PSI, compression temps won't be too bad.
Go to the Holley Commander 950
Head Porting for street
Choose a good cam to match the input
 
The end results should be a real torquey gas mizer that will be a oversized pocket rocket
POLARACO2010-12-13 20:01:21
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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2010, 05:54:22 PM »

I am not running an Edelbrock system. My intake is another one of my famous (infamous?) one off creations. It's a Weiand tunnel ram with the top half unbolted and a plenum welded on. the throttle body was originally a Mustang Cobra twin 57 mm piece. I have replaced it with an Accufab 1697 cfm single blade throttle body. The fuel injection system is an ancient Electromotive TEC II distributorless EFI arrangement. There are better systems on the market but this one is very functional and was cost effective.

There is NO reason to not have turbos on a big block. After 10 years of running boost it was really hard to pull them off the car. I had to keep telling myself that it was okay because they were going on the Imperial. The hot rod could knock down 19 mpg and still run off from a friend's 1999 Yamaha YZF-R1. He doesn't appreciate being reminded of that fact. :)

BOTH manifolds must feed the turbo. You can't clog one side with a turbo and let the other side breathe. The motor home turbo has the right manifold exiting to the turbo. The left manifold blows in through the bottom of the right manifold and out the top. they both feed the turbo. The down pipe from the turbo has been removed in those photos.
If you prefer twins they should each be the same size and are normally fed by one on each manifold.
Do not try the diesel turbo tricks here. Compounding turbos is not for a spark ignited engine. Leave that stuff to the compression fired oil burners. I know what those guys are doing but I haven't pushed my Cummins over 27 psi.

Stock style cams tend to work well. The Buick Grand National guys were running deep 9 second passes on the stock camshafts. Even the Chrysler 2.2 turbo guys were bumping 10s without changing cams. Mine is a custom grind because I wanted a turbo specific cam. If you don't want to go to a custom cam feel free to use the stock piece or get a cheapie RV cam.
It does not take an exotic engine to make good power. Compression between 8:1 and 9:1 with a mild cam and stock heads will make good power. Like all engines, the power is in the heads. The more head you have the more power it's going to make assuming the turbos and cam are matched.
With proper intercooling (physical or chemical) it should not be difficult to make 700 hp and maintain a reliable engine. Avoid detonation and your engine should live a long happy life.

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Steve

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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2010, 08:06:42 PM »

OK Kevin!  Good Info. 
 
My problem with twins is space.  This is a luxury cruiser and I intend to keep it that way, and keep the guy I bought it from Happy too.  (He'll have to buy me a bucket of shrimp to drive it LOL  Private joke)
 
Assuming I stay with a a single turbo,  suppose I could design an elaborate Y-pipe setup, similar to the MoHome you are describing.
 
I'm thinking now, make 2" pipes to a collector, feed the turbo, and then either go to a single 3" exhaust system, or loop back to the existing 2 1/2".  Sorry Snotty, those flowmasters have to go.  I would think it will be less complicated to just go with the single 3". 
 
I'm working a budget here.  It's a long story and most of these guys know I lost a great deal of money in parts on this car.  If I didn't love the damned thing so much. . . . .
 
I know the Commander 950 is a POS, but it is an improvement over a carb.  I'm thinking about going with that and a top hat..  When I did my Polara, I always had this in the back of my head.  I even have places  for the turbos..  That's on an antiquated Dodge ODP1 system.
 
Fuel injection is definitely the way to go with turbos.
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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2010, 03:57:57 AM »

Skip the Commander system. I don't think it will work with positive manifold pressure. You need a system that can read a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor.
I want to keep the Imperial a luzury cruiser too. That's why I plan on full length quiet exhaust with the turbos mounted under the car.
Remote mounted turbos will not cause horrible lag time if you size them properly.
 
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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2010, 04:28:08 PM »

Feets, I seem to recall a Corvette that was dual turbo'd and they were located in the wheel wells behind the front wheels of the fenders. Steve, this would be a good location, out of the way, and since you aren't talking intercoolers and all that, but finding a couple  to use is not something I am real familiar with dealing with, especially with such large an engine and such low pressure. I did finally find this site: http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/ which has a very large selection and all the graphs (there are like 100 turbo numbers and the graphs to go with them), but I am not totally familiar with filling in the proper info to get the proper results. Possibly feets can help us out on this one, and kind of show us what we need to do to turbo big cube engines in big Mopars on a budget.
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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2010, 05:51:01 PM »

Be careful with the turbo calculators. They can get you mixed up if you don't know how to rad the charts. They will figure out the cold side of the turbo but the hot side remains a mystery.
Play with that chart and you'll find that a T4 60-1 or maybe a 62-1 compressor wheel will be dead on for a mild 440. That's why I used them and physics hasn't changed. I would lean towards a T4 P-trim turbine if I had to do it again. I'm undecided what size housing to put over it.
There are a variety of turbos that will make boost on a 440 but they won't be efficient.


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Steve

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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2010, 07:04:41 PM »

I'm not looking for a hugh amount of power, any boost will be an improvement and the power will be a byproduct for what I am looking to do.  It will give that 4600 pounds an edge, but definitely give it more economy. 
 
In the 5.9 I built last spring, I used a high lift, short duration cam.  It's a gasoline diesel now, delivering over 400# of torque, but only a 10 HP increase.  The 413 is 100 more horses at 340 HP stock.  The 5.9 could use a tad more snot, which is horsepower.  I built this with a turbo in the future.  But getting 18 around town is impressive for a 360 in a battle barge.
 
In 1974, there was a turbo option on the 5.9 pickups.  I'd love to find one of those.
 
POLARACO2010-12-15 00:07:45
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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2010, 07:21:22 PM »

Again, a setup similar to mine is what you need. It started out life as a stock 440 with a baby cam and a couple turbos. I've added to it since then but the turbos stayed the same. 80% of the time I left the boost at 8 psi. I occasionally played with the higher boost levels. All I did was bleed the wastegates. The turbos didn't change.

Be careful with eBag turbos. There are LOTS of Chinese ripoffs of Garrett and Turbonetics turbos. They've got a bad rap for a reason. Turbos spin at 100,000 rpm and sometimes higher. The last thing you need is some cheap out of balance impeller blade breaking off and getting sucked into your engine.


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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2010, 08:01:25 PM »

The problem I keep seeing with the turbo setup is that for the cubic inches and low psi, a single turbo has difficulty being large enough to get into its power range potential of low rpm and higher pressure, which is why I was thinking about the Cummins unit being a diesel it works more at low rpm than the other units. Using the Commando 950 allows a hood and no carb problems, and the T1 setup of low boost shouldn't affect the pressurizing that a single bar MAP, double bar probably wouldn't be necessary, T1 setups didn't have them, so the system should be able to function properly.  Couple this with the ported head and you should be in good shape, because from past experience of ported head and turbo, a 30psi setup unported worked as well (same lapsed times in the quarter) as 20psi ported.
 
My main thought and unknowing is, what turbo is going to get the volume necessary for 413 cubic inches at low rpm and single turbo? It's that 413 cubic inches problem I have a problem with. Plenty of exhaust gas to make it spin, it is the intake compressor side I don't know about (thus the Cummins, but it is of higher compression, thus higher exhaust pressure on that side to start with, so maybe I am thinking of that wrong to start with). 
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firedome

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Turbo Charging a Mopar RB.
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2010, 04:33:29 AM »


Steve, you can get Garrett T-4s off Saab Turbos in a junkyard, can use
one for each side.  They're bulletproof, we use Saabs for
autocross and hillclimbs. A tweaked Saab Turbo 16valve dohc is far more efficient as
an air pump than any Mopar block so you should get more than enough per
bank. You want ZERO exhaust restriction with a Turbo, we now run 3"
open pipe with a 2.1L engine on the '84 900T  (engine now out
getting a new bottom end and trans this winter) and '99 9-3 chipped and
modded Turbo. The "boys" (24 and 29) drive, my reactions are now too
slow, they have to be lightning quick for 'cross. FWD is a challenge
but our Saabs are competitive because of power and tires.  If you
want to ditch carbs, MegaSquirt programmable FI is more state of the
art, Edelbrock's is primitive in comparison... my son, Physicist and
racer, is putting it in the car he's building. 
firedome2010-12-15 09:46:38
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