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Author Topic: Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block  (Read 12664 times)

glen cyr

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Performance/economy upgrades for Mopar Small Block
« Reply #225 on: September 27, 2010, 01:51:31 PM »

Quote from: POLARACO
They are 1.5's
  The LA engines are 1.5's and the magnums are 1.6 from the factory. Hughes probably took that in to account when they ground the cam and i'm wondering if when they quote the lift,it is based on the 1.6 ratio. You might have to look at your cam card.
 
Glen
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Steve

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« Reply #226 on: September 27, 2010, 02:28:06 PM »

Some how I knew they were 1.6's, but at the moment I couldn't remember, so I called my resident Magnum guy and he said 1.5's.  WTH?
 
The timing boost I did last week, did wonders.  I didn't even start the car until yesterday.  But there was an immediate improvement.  I need to clear the pooter and drive it again now.
 
Anyway, here is the cam card. . .  It was on page 5
 
Thanks Glenn. . .we're down to fine tuning
 
POLARACO2010-09-27 19:30:27
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« Reply #227 on: September 27, 2010, 07:24:02 PM »

Not sure how you got 1.5s given the Magnum engine itself. This might be a valve cover removal and dial indicator measurement. The shorter lift statistically will give more bottom end grunt (based on each and every time bigger rockers are added, more top end is gained at the expense of a slight loss of low end torque). Kind of thinking out loud that the higher lift with the shorter duration is still lifting so quickly that in a way it is still working like a larger duration cam (which is difficult to do with a flat tappet cam,  but not a roller cam).
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Steve

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« Reply #228 on: September 27, 2010, 08:02:08 PM »

It has to be 1.6 rockers.  Glenn is right.  I'm using the factory rockers and it definitely a magnum.
 
I understand what you are saying, but how does that effect the economy?
 
I'll tell you what I experienced. . .
With the new timing settings, there is definitely more power.  However, I tried a WOT power brake and all it does is push the car along.  The front brakes won't hold it.  The tires on it grip extremely well, and I think the 3.23 sure-grip might have something to do with it.   They feel like they want to break loose, but won't.   Further, there are a few 5% hills around here, a couple of miles long.  I go right up them in OD lockup, and can actually gain speed.  In one case, I was doing that at 45 MPH.  We know it's harder to do this at lower speeds than at higher speeds.
 
Found a fuel leak at the tank on the return line and repaired that.  Looked like it's been leaking for a while.  So now I'll be able to get an even better MPG reading.
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Steve

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« Reply #229 on: September 27, 2010, 08:31:41 PM »

Sorry Ed
 
There are no 1.5 rockers for the Magnum.  I can upgrade to rollers or to a 1.7 ratio,also in roller.  I really think the 1.7's would not be a good choice for me.
 
However, I have been thinnking about installing these.  I have to replace the push rods anyway because I think the intake rods may be slightly bent.  If you recall, I bent all the exhaust rods.  They are a bit noisey.
 
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-1425-KIT/Application/?query=Engine+Size%7c5.9L%2f360
 
According with what I am reading, I can get an additional 35 to 40 HP by just going to steel rollers.  Makes sense.  When I did all this, all I gained was about 5 HP.  235 HP and 425 #.  Just like a diesel.
 
It does have sufficient bottom end.  The good thing is, all the power goes to the ground.
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« Reply #230 on: September 28, 2010, 09:33:40 AM »

I would stick with the 1.6 rockers, because like you say, it does have the torque you wanted, higher lift yet would raise the rpm for the torque, not lower it. I wouldn't have a problem with roller rockers though, they are a lot easier on the valvetrain.
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Steve

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« Reply #231 on: October 01, 2010, 02:32:05 PM »

Got my Roller Rockers.  Going to try to get them in Sunday
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Steve

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« Reply #232 on: October 02, 2010, 12:56:00 PM »

I love it! 
 
I put one bank in so far. . .  Going to be too dark to work on the other bank.  But I drove it.  Felt the difference immediately!  Tomorrow I 'll do the right bank.  I have to go back in and tweak the adjustments on the left bank.  My SK socket is a tad too thick to get it done accurately.  It gets jamed in the rocker.  Someone oppsed on the design.
 
WeeBee, wait until you drive it now!  Car is getting close to being completely done.
 
Oh yeah, I don't remember if I mentioned this. . .   The timing tweak did wonders.  I'll see how it is on fuel for a while now.  I drove it all over today and the gas gauge didn't budge.  Unlike a few weeks ago
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« Reply #233 on: October 02, 2010, 09:43:35 PM »

Sounds good. You do the zero lash stuff, not the zero lash and then 3/4 turn or whatever, right?
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Steve

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« Reply #234 on: October 02, 2010, 09:57:42 PM »

Explain Ed.
 
They say to bring the nut down until the lash is gone.  It was hard with the SK socket, but I stopped and got a Craftsman which looks to have a slightly thinner wall.  The SK kept getting stuck in the rocker.  Took more time to get the socket out of each rocker than it did to adjust all 8.
 
I'll readjust tomorrow afternoon.  But before I fo that, let me hear what you have to say
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« Reply #235 on: October 03, 2010, 07:18:00 PM »

When my mentor, a totally brilliant engineer and inventor, taught me the art of flow, tuning, designing, you name it, I stopped breaking tools, parts, hammers, shovels, animals, and actually started learing what was going on (great porter, we experimented a whole lot), there was one thing we learned about valve adjusting and lifter preloads. Non-adjustable rockers have a preset of approximately .050 into the lifter plunger to allow for slop through all 16 lifters, the bleed hole is designed to bleed down just enough to prevent them from pumping up that extra .050 until you reach 5200-5300rpm in stock application, which is where most Mopar lifters start floating the valves. When you start getting into the adjustable rockers, all the books tell you how to take the lash (where there is no play between the lifter plungerat the top of its snapring before the spring starts to compress, through the pushrod, across the rocker arm and then to the top of the valve tip)[description for the benefits of other than yourself Steve]. If you stop right here, you will prevent the top rpm, that 5200-5300rpm point, from automatically floating the valves and now the valve spring itself is going to float if it is overrevved. Additionally, to help with the valve float due to the lifter pumping up is the high performance anti-pump-up lifter. These lifters look pretty stock except the bleed hole is slightly larger so higher volume oil pump pressure/volume and higher rpm doesn't increase inside the lifter.
So, by taking the lifter so it is at zero lash at the top of the lifter, it will not pump up or float due to higher rpm, she will run smoother even if debris gets into the lifter and lets it retain oil pressure and extends the lifter bore that extra .050 (that's the 1/2 to 3/4 turn after zero lash), and in the event of valve touch to piston, you have this extra amount inside the lifter body that can give under pressure that will be that much closer to bottoming out if the pre-load is already taken up. It also prevents excess pressure against the cam, lifter, pushrod, valve tip and spring compression which is totally unnecessary, just extra friction that is set at around 35-70psi, and we all know that zero pressure against two objects, in this case is cam bearings, cam, lifter, pushrod tips, rocker times three, valve tip, valve spring, all adds up to excess force and friction, thus a loss of HP/torque due to this extra friction. If reduced to zero lash or near zero clearance, it is simple gravity weight on the objects that is the frictional weight, not the preset .050 pressure multiplied by the obove objects forced to scrape each other (all these things times 16 except cam bearings, which is times five), which reduces wear above all.
 
dana442010-10-04 00:22:06
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Steve

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« Reply #236 on: October 03, 2010, 09:03:07 PM »

I understand all that, but you didn't give me a clear answer.  I think. . . .
 
So are you saying to take the lash out and add 3/4 of a turn, or subtract?
 
Adjusting these is a problem.  I spend more time detting the socket out of the rocker than adjusting it.  If I only go 1/2 way down, it isn't so bad.  Thye need an extra 15 or 20K additional clearence to do it right.  I can't feel the rocker as I pull it down.  And the socket has a tendency to spin the rocker as well.  I'm going to put the craftsman socket in the lathe and take off the plating.  That should do it.
 
I have a little sputter at around 1500 in lower gears. .  .  I may have one a bit too tight now.
 
I wrote to Comp and whinned about the lousey design.  The SK, Snap On and Craftsman sockets all did the same thing.  The craftsman was the best of the bunch.  I told Comp you can't get a good adjustment with this condition and it needs to be fixed in the furture.
 
But, I have a solution on a 5 dollar socket
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« Reply #237 on: October 04, 2010, 08:56:01 PM »

STEVE, take the lash down to zero AND STOP. This is zero lash, no extra compression or extra quarter turn or anything, but zero.

Back off the swedge nut, turn the bolt gently while lifting up and down on the valve end of the rocker until it all the sudden stops moving any, then lock the swedge nut down and you are done. NO EXTRA COMPRESSION OF THE PUSHROD INTO THE LIFTER.
 
The key is zero lash, otherwise I would have said take it to zero lash and then 3/4 turn extra.
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Steve

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« Reply #238 on: October 04, 2010, 09:08:28 PM »

Easier said than done.  That's what I was talking about with the socket.  I can't feel the rockers with the socket in there and it's a Bi**** to get it out.
 
When I turn the socket and knock 25 or 30K off of it, then I should be able to do it.  As it is I think I have one slightly too tight as I have a slight miss or stutter at 1500.  I'll get back into it later in the week.  What you described is exactly what I was trying to acomplish..
 
They're pretty quiet right now, but that's not saying they don't need to be done again.  I either have one too tight or too loose.  The way it idles, I think there is one too loose.  But it's a good thing to do them after they have a few miles on them anyway.  I hate tearing into this again.  Have to move too much crap out of the way.
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Steve

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« Reply #239 on: October 28, 2010, 07:28:57 AM »

Thought I would let you know the results. . .
 
Since I know crap about adjusting valves on studs, I asked my buddy, TJ, to do them for me while I was gone.  He's the one with the proper scanner for this beast too.
 
He set the valves, and reset the timing back about 5 degrees.  I was at 7* advanced when it should be TDC.  Found a bad MAP sensor which was fooling everyone, (Except me) it was showing 9" when I know that motor is making 14+.  Turns out I had two rockers too tight, which brought the actual vacuume.  They were too tight because the lifters are leaking down.  Something I need to work on I guess.  Hey Ed!  Any ideas on how I can fix those lifters in the car?  These don't come out without removing the heads.
 
Anyway, since Leaburn drove it, it's now chirping the tires easily.  NOW I can find out about the MPG.  It feels like what I expected to get from the build.  It just took the right equipment
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