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Author Topic: Serious Brake Circuit Problem  (Read 2080 times)

Steve

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Serious Brake Circuit Problem
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2009, 10:11:43 AM »

Hulka
 
Does the engine die when that happens?  Or just load up from the alternator working?
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Steve

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Serious Brake Circuit Problem
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2009, 02:42:03 PM »

No, it doesn't die, but there is a definite change in the engine when it happens. When we returned to the barn after the test run (see 1st post) it got so bad that when I put on the turn signal and hit the brakes to turn into the driveway, the headlights cut out and the blinker stopped until I took my foot of the pedal.

What do these clues point to?

Also want you to know that since cleaning the bulkhead connectors, not only does the ammeter show a healthy charge, but the blinkers blink faster. Didn't realize how lazy they were blinking before. Amazing what the proper voltage level can do to a car, eh?

BTW, the battery is now disconnected.

Thanks for the advice guys!

Uncle Hulka




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Uncle Hulka

1967 Oldsmobile 4-4-2
1968 Plymouth Sport Fury Conv w/Factory 440HP
1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass S
1969 Oldsmobile Delta 88 w/Original B07 Police Package
1970 Chevelle 396

Steve

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Serious Brake Circuit Problem
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2009, 04:46:37 PM »

Obviously has to be a fault in the wiring somewhere. 
You said you disconnected the brake light switch?
 
What happens with the headlights off?  Parking lights?
 
2 + 2 isn't equaling 5 yet
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Steve

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Serious Brake Circuit Problem
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2009, 10:42:43 AM »

Steve
 
Where are you in Conn?  Maybe you are close enough I can take a ride up there easily.  Connecticut is only about 45 minutes from me.  But from there. . . ..
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Steve

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Serious Brake Circuit Problem
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2009, 09:03:33 AM »

*****   UPDATE   *****

Jon and I have been going over the wiring diagram for the SF and we believe we have identified the best place to investigate the cause of the problem.

There is one location that has commonality between all the various symptoms. I won't go into too much detail, but it goes something like this:

1) There is a wire (R6-12-BK) from the BAT output of the alternator to Bulkhead connector P.

2) Under the dash, There is a wire (R6-12-BK) from Bulkhead connector P that goes to a 5-wire splice.

3) From that splice the remaining 4 wire are as follows:
One wire (R6A-12BK) goes to the input side of the Ammeter.
One wire (J1-12R) goes to the Ignition switch.
One wire (L1-16BK) goes to the Headlamp switch.
One wire (Q3-12R) provides voltage for the Stop Light Switch (via fused output D3-18P).

4) A wire (A1-12R) runs from the Output side of the Ammeter to Bulkhead connector J (NOTE: J is the connector that I mentioned looked a little "Charred" earlier in this thread).

Given this layout, it would appear that a good starting point would be to look at the 5-wire splice and the wire to Bulkhead connector P. Where exactly is this link located?

As I said before, I also plan to run an appropriately sized wire from the alternator BAT to the starter relay Lug B. Is there a typical sized alternator used on these cars. I don't have any high-current options (Power windows, Power seat, A/C, etc.) so any idea max amp output? I just want to size this wire and the fusible link appropriately. I'm thinking 10 gage wire with a 14 gage fusible link would be in the ballpark, but I want it to be right.

I also plan to investigate the connections at the back of the Ammeter. I might bypass it, but I shouldn't have to if I run the wire from the Alternator to the Starter Relay stud as mentioned earlier.

If anyone has any thoughts, I would welcome other opinions.

Thanks,
Hulka

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Uncle Hulka

1967 Oldsmobile 4-4-2
1968 Plymouth Sport Fury Conv w/Factory 440HP
1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass S
1969 Oldsmobile Delta 88 w/Original B07 Police Package
1970 Chevelle 396

Steve

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Serious Brake Circuit Problem
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2009, 12:07:21 PM »

The fact it's NOT blowing the brake light fuse is a clue for me.
 
That splice you are talking about is in the vicinity of the brake pedal arm, which is what I am suspecting is causing this. 
 
When you were poking around the harness, moving things around, you said things changed.  It may be rubbing against a lighting wire.  I assume nothing happens when the lights are off?  Look all the way up to the pivot bolt up high.  I don't think the rear harness goes that way.  I think it goes straight down and left.  Could be the part of the front heqad light harness going towards the bulkhead connector.  Been a long time since I have been under one of those. . .   Although, the 65 is very soon
 
POLARACO2009-05-07 17:13:11
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Steve

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Serious Brake Circuit Problem
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2009, 01:25:46 PM »

Hi Polaraco,

No, the problem exists regardless of whether the headlights are on or off. I think when we solve this problem, some of the other problems I've had that I thought were unrelated will be resolved as well. For example. Going all the way back to my earliest posts, remember the issue I had when I would come to a stop? The car would run rough and sometimes stall. The low voltage condition you folks suggested is possibly related. I solved that problem by solving the symptom, not the CAUSE of the problem. I just rewired the ignition circuit. Symptom solved, problem remains!

Friday, I hope to have another gearhead friend over to get under the dash. I'd like to pull the instrument bezel and instrument cluster and really investigate the under dash wiring ESPECIALLY the ammeter!

How's that sound to you guys?


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Uncle Hulka

1967 Oldsmobile 4-4-2
1968 Plymouth Sport Fury Conv w/Factory 440HP
1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass S
1969 Oldsmobile Delta 88 w/Original B07 Police Package
1970 Chevelle 396

Steve

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Serious Brake Circuit Problem
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2009, 04:23:22 AM »

*****   UPDATE   *****

Last night I started my investigations. Following the FSM procedure fro instrument removal, I:

1) Removed the instrument lighting panel and placed it on top of the dash.

2) Removed the instrument bezel.

3) Removed the 4 screws holding the panel where the two vent controls are located under the steering column. This allows access to the shift indicator linkage.

Unfortunately, this is as far as I was able to get. The next step requires the disconnection of the speedometer cable. I just couldn't get to it. I could locate the cable, and could just barely touch the connector with the tip of my finger, but I was unable to disconnect it.

This is not a show-stopper. I just have to wait until I can get someone with smaller hands up there.

While I have the dash disassembled, I thought this might be a good time to install an original AM/FM radio I've been holding onto for about a year.

One other thing I've decided has to be addressed is the dash bezel itself. It in pretty poor shape. I want to repair the cracks and repaint it, but I've never restored anything like this before. Anyone have any advice, especially on reverse painting all the words, proper color shades, etc.?

OR does anyone have a good 67-68 fury bezel they want to sell? ;)

Thanks everyone!
Uncle Hulka


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Uncle Hulka

1967 Oldsmobile 4-4-2
1968 Plymouth Sport Fury Conv w/Factory 440HP
1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass S
1969 Oldsmobile Delta 88 w/Original B07 Police Package
1970 Chevelle 396

Steve

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Serious Brake Circuit Problem
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2009, 05:59:49 AM »

There is usually enoug slack in the cable you can pull through the fire wall.  Then you can reach it from the top
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Steve

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Serious Brake Circuit Problem
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2009, 08:14:11 AM »

Thanks, Polaraco! I'll try that and let you know how that works.



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Uncle Hulka

1967 Oldsmobile 4-4-2
1968 Plymouth Sport Fury Conv w/Factory 440HP
1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass S
1969 Oldsmobile Delta 88 w/Original B07 Police Package
1970 Chevelle 396

Steve

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Serious Brake Circuit Problem
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2009, 04:04:18 PM »

*****   UPDATE   *****

OK, at lunch today, Jon and I split from work and headed to the barn (a fringe benefit to living 3 miles from work).

We got the the instrument panel off and quickly found a definite problem and the possible cause. The output side of the Ammeter, as well as the multiple wires connected to this stud, is charred. The stud itself is loose and undoubtedly the cause of high-current arc-ing.

I brought the ammeter back to work and when time allowed, we inspected it more thoroughly. We decided to silver solder both of the lugs onto their respective contact pads (for lack of a better name). This will prevent the studs from loosening again and thus eliminate that as a potential cause of future high-resistance.

I was happy to find this problem (and commensurate fire risk), but I'm not convinced that it is the sole problem. I am still going to perform the wiring modifications I outlined previously.

So that's where I am right now;

Bezel in desperate need of restoration.
Ammeter in need of repair.
Ring terminals in need of repair (from charring).
Clock in need of a knob and repair (probably won't get to that this time around).

I still have the AM/FM radio to install also.

(whew)


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Uncle Hulka

1967 Oldsmobile 4-4-2
1968 Plymouth Sport Fury Conv w/Factory 440HP
1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass S
1969 Oldsmobile Delta 88 w/Original B07 Police Package
1970 Chevelle 396

Steve

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Serious Brake Circuit Problem
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2009, 04:28:29 PM »

MMMMM   Maybe. . .
 
Was the harness close to the brake pedal?
 
That must be the distribution point for the battery accessories, like the lights.  It could have just been a simple thing of the head lights loosing their connection with the power when you applied the pedal. . . .  Can't rule it out. . .
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Steve

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Serious Brake Circuit Problem
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2009, 02:16:20 AM »


Good point and worth investigating. I'll check for any loose connections at all the switches. Thanks for that suggestion.

ALSO, the Ammeter studs have been silver soldered and are now extremely stable. These puppies aren't coming loose, that's for sure. I'm not sure I'm going to re-connect it, but I know if I do, it is better now than it was when it was new.

Uncle Hulka2009-05-12 17:21:55
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Uncle Hulka

1967 Oldsmobile 4-4-2
1968 Plymouth Sport Fury Conv w/Factory 440HP
1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass S
1969 Oldsmobile Delta 88 w/Original B07 Police Package
1970 Chevelle 396

Steve

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Serious Brake Circuit Problem
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2009, 06:33:37 PM »

*****   UPDATE   *****

Great day today! Jon and I identified and resolved several wiring issues. they all are a result of a previous "tech" who didn't have the slightest clue as to proper electrical wiring techniques. I mean, it's no small miracle that 1) the car operated as well as it did, and 2) that it didn't burn up!

Also was able to test the AM/FM radio and YES, it works great! I bought the radio untested so I was a little concerned  about whether it worked or not.

Also removed the dashlight dimmer switch. It never worked properly and after seeing its condition, I'm not surprised. I cleaned it up with some battery terminal cleaner foaming spray I had and it worked like a charm. Flushed it with water per instructions, carefully blew it dry with compressed air, oiled it in all the right places and it works like new.

Also replaced all the dash lamps. I also installed a new high beam dimmer switch. I thought the original switch had failed because all of a sudden switching to high beam would pin the ammeter to Discharge. Condition continued after new switch was installed. This led us to discover that the true cause was caused by the afore mentioned electronic wizard. Oh well, now I have a spare dimmer switch.

It amazing how much the car like its new 12V diet. Everything seems to function so much better than before (no surprise, eh?).

It's not all buttoned up yet since the radio still has to be installed (the wires on the AM/FM radio are hacked pretty badly) and I want to make sure we didn't miss any of Mr.Wizard's electronic booby traps.

Well, that's all I have for right now. It's late, it was a long day and I'm tired.....

......but I'm one day closer to done.

Hulka


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Uncle Hulka

1967 Oldsmobile 4-4-2
1968 Plymouth Sport Fury Conv w/Factory 440HP
1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass S
1969 Oldsmobile Delta 88 w/Original B07 Police Package
1970 Chevelle 396

Stan Paralikis

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Serious Brake Circuit Problem
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2009, 03:32:35 AM »

And that's what this hobby's all about.
Good job.
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