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Author Topic: 440-WOB Part 2 - Continued...  (Read 11196 times)

Steve

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440-WOB Part 2 - Continued...
« Reply #150 on: July 21, 2009, 06:47:10 PM »

let's see the rest of the cam. . .BTW where is it?
 
The other option is the can shattered and broke the rod. . .   But the piece would have to be small enough to fall through.
 
I love forensics.  As an investigator, I used to get my man every time too.
 
POLARACO2009-07-21 23:48:40
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Rich

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440-WOB Part 2 - Continued...
« Reply #151 on: July 21, 2009, 09:44:31 PM »

As a former engine builder I have seen my share of catastrophic engine failures. Most makes have a specific inherent problem IE: big block Ford main bearing oil holes are poorly drilled and seldom line up the the oil holes in the bearing shells. Big block Pontiacs have huge 3 1/4" mains that have too much bearing speed at high rpm and they spin the bearings, etc.

Big block Mopars, aside from the oil galley issue, attempt to pull the wrist pins out of the pistons at high rpm. This streches the rods, which then fail by either breaking the bolts or breaking the rod right at the weak point at the upper bolt hole.  Mopar made special rods to help hold the high revving six- pack engines together, not to mention the extremely beefy hemi rods with huge 7/16" bolts.  Basically, the long stroke RB blocks weren't meant to be spun much above 5,500 rpm without the better rods. The short stroke 361-383's don't seem to suffer from this problem nearly as
much as the 440's do, mainly because of their greater rod length to stroke
ratio, which reduces the side load on both the rods and pistons, plus you get less wear on the bores too.  So, if you're doing a complete rebuild why not spend an extra $600 and get new rods with ARP bolts ... it will save you a lot of cash and heartburn in the long run.


High revving Mopars will also spin the main bearings due to cap walk - even the cross bolted ones. The solution to this problem is to install a main bearing girdle, but it is not really needed unless you're racing.


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Rich

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440-WOB Part 2 - Continued...
« Reply #152 on: July 21, 2009, 10:01:00 PM »

I forgot to add that the best way to scatter your 440's guts all over the road is to enter a burn out contest. The repeated cycling of high rpm (while the tires are spinning) with the sudden low rpm (as the tires grab) puts an enormous strain on those skinny little 3/8" rod bolts, which can break suddenly ruining your day. You can do straight line burnouts all day, because the car will eventually pick up enough speed to stop the tire spinning, but going around in circles keeping the tires spinning is a recipe for disaster.

It is very similar to the stresses seen in off-road racing engines. They're airborne one moment with the engine revving at red line, the next they're on the ground with the rpms dropping a few thousand in an instant -- best recipe in the world to snap a rod bolt.

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Stan Paralikis

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440-WOB Part 2 - Continued...
« Reply #153 on: July 22, 2009, 01:04:51 AM »

Quote from: krautmaster
So, if you're doing a complete rebuild why not spend an extra $600 and get new rods with ARP bolts ... it will save you a lot of cash and heartburn in the long run.



Why not aluminum heads, sodium filled valves, H-beam rods, coated pistons, machined  lifter bores....
 
It's all relative, my friend.
Had I been building an engine for the strip, of course you go all out .
This was for a lumbering street engine towing around a barge.
 
As far as I am concerned, I cut no corners and the build was meticulous in quality and detail.  I sweated the small stuff.  As in any engine build, assumptions are made from experience and advice from the Best & The Brightest. 
 
I would do it again the same way.  It was just the luck of the draw.  I take  full responsibilty.

Tom Dawson

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440-WOB Part 2 - Continued...
« Reply #154 on: July 22, 2009, 09:43:54 AM »

Quote from: Commando1
Quote from: krautmaster
So, if you're doing a complete rebuild why not spend an extra $600 and get new rods with ARP bolts ... it will save you a lot of cash and heartburn in the long run.



Why not aluminum heads, sodium filled valves, H-beam rods, coated pistons, machined  lifter bores....
 
It's all relative, my friend.
Had I been building an engine for the strip, of course you go all out .
This was for a lumbering street engine towing around a barge.
 
As far as I am concerned, I cut no corners and the build was meticulous in quality and detail.  I sweated the small stuff.  As in any engine build, assumptions are made from experience and advice from the Best & The Brightest. 
 

Takes a real man to own up to a fault-total respect from me Stan, as for what happened, to me looks like the rod just did not want to stay in its place. I saw this before, a very good friend of mine went thru 2 440's in his 71 Duster drag car(ran mid to high 9's) the first was
using a set of good H-beam rods, #2 rod let go after not even 50 passes(almost lost the car on that pass, oil on track, rod pieces cut L/R slick). The second motor, using beefy
aluminium rods let go at 100 passes(aluminium rods are good for 200 passes) trashing
the whole motor again. Both times car had full oil pressure, rod just let go trashing the motor. Good luck putting her back together Stan-You have one NY I would love to have(maybe next year I can make you an offer)
furyman672009-07-22 14:44:31
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Rich

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440-WOB Part 2 - Continued...
« Reply #155 on: July 22, 2009, 10:04:21 AM »

Yes, it is a shame when your motor lets go, especially since you did your best. For some reason when Mopars let go it is almost always the #2 rod. Their must be some inherent flexing (or lack thereof) of the crank in that area that aids in them breaking. The #3 will run out of oil and spin the bearing and then blow, but that has to do with the oil galley not supplying it with enough oil.

I'm curious as to the circumstances when it blew, as you can see the bearing wasn't the problem, but most likely the bolt breaking. Were you on it hard with it revved way up, or had you just got out of the pedal (that is when they usually let go)? It would be good info for the rest of us so we could avoid similar circumstances.


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Stan Paralikis

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440-WOB Part 2 - Continued...
« Reply #156 on: July 22, 2009, 10:27:22 AM »

[/QUOTE]

I was hard into into it.  I backed off to let it do a 1-2 upshift.  Then I got into it again.  A few seconds later it blew without warning.
 
I did a complete teardown this morning.  Even the crank is shot.  Brought it to the junkie...
 

Snotty

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440-WOB Part 2 - Continued...
« Reply #157 on: July 22, 2009, 10:51:00 AM »

Sorry to hear it Stan.
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Steve

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440-WOB Part 2 - Continued...
« Reply #158 on: July 22, 2009, 12:26:58 PM »

So I gues you want this 440 I have here?
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Steve

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440-WOB Part 2 - Continued...
« Reply #159 on: July 22, 2009, 12:29:43 PM »

Look at it this way.  The only thing you need to do is the bottom end again.  The rest, heads, intake, carb, valve covers and so on are useable. 
 
Let me know. . .but it won't be until  September.  Lemme think.  2 cases of Iron gut and fuel.  ..LOL
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Stan Paralikis

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440-WOB Part 2 - Continued...
« Reply #160 on: July 22, 2009, 01:30:09 PM »

Steve:  you are more than generous and I thank you.   You have no idea how I appreciate it.
I'm holding off right now on doing anything (   ) although I may go the route AL (67Newport) did and recommended to me.  I can get a crate engine from Marshall Engines, a 440 w/steel crank, no core, delivered, tax included for $2200.  Comes w/3 year guarantee.  Man, that's hard to beat...
Gotta see if my Discover Card doesn't go up in flames.

Rich

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440-WOB Part 2 - Continued...
« Reply #161 on: July 22, 2009, 02:16:03 PM »


Quote from: Commando1
Quote from: krautmaster
I'm curious as to the circumstances when it blew, as you can see the bearing wasn't the problem, but most likely the bolt breaking. Were you on it hard with it revved way up, or had you just got out of the pedal (that is when they usually let go)? It would be good info for the rest of us so we could avoid similar circumstances.

I was hard into into it.  I backed off to let it do a 1-2 upshift.  Then I got into it again.  A few seconds later it blew without warning.
 
I did a complete teardown this morning.  Even the crank is shot.  Brought it to the junkie...
 


Sounds about par for the course:  on it - off it - on it - ka boom. The rods, just like any other part, have a fatigue life and when its up, its up and there's not much you can do about it. That is the only reason I suggest putting new rods in the RB blocks because you don't know how hard they were run and when their fatigue limit has been reached. I've seen ones that had been magnafluxed break a week later.

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Alan

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440-WOB Part 2 - Continued...
« Reply #162 on: July 24, 2009, 06:46:12 AM »

So the advice here is....if you have an unmodified 440 with original rods, you should avoid  mashing the pedal to the floor with a quick let-off???  What about with a standard tranny? Other than power shifting, how can you avoid that cycle? and more importantly, how would you impress the girls if you can't do hard shifts?
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Al

Steve

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440-WOB Part 2 - Continued...
« Reply #163 on: July 24, 2009, 09:10:19 AM »

Not really Al
 
I suspect something else went wrong.
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Stan Paralikis

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440-WOB Part 2 - Continued...
« Reply #164 on: July 24, 2009, 10:14:11 AM »

Quote from: POLARACO
Not really Al
 
Ditto.
In all my years I have never heard of that "theory"
 
And as far as impressing the girls,
I'm bald and 60
 
Commando12009-07-24 15:15:13
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