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Author Topic: PS Pump belt. Catch 22?  (Read 1153 times)

attkrlufy

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PS Pump belt. Catch 22?
« on: July 25, 2008, 04:26:22 AM »


            I'm in a weird spot w/ my power steering pump belt and I'm wondering if you guys have any insight.

When
I bought the car, the belt squealed like crazy above a certain # RPM -
usually at 55 mph and higher. So I eventually tightened the belt by
adjusting the pump.

I think I overtightened it, because the
squealing stopped, but a few months later, the pump began leaking
("pouring" is more like it) fluid out the pulley shaft. A friend felt
the tension on the belt and told me the belt was too tight and I had
probably worn out the shaft seal b/c there was too much pressure on it.

So
I replaced the pump and set the belt to about where the normal amount
of tightness should be - and it's squealing again. Less loudly, but now
at 50 mph.

I don't want to tighten it more and risk going
through another pump - but driving it on the highway or empty country
roads is a little tiring and embarrassing.

So what's the deal?  I feel like I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.
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Matt Aker

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PS Pump belt. Catch 22?
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2008, 05:21:13 AM »

How's the alignment of the pulleys?
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Stan Paralikis

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PS Pump belt. Catch 22?
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2008, 07:17:29 AM »

Matt is correct.  If the belt is tensioned properly, then the culprit is pulley alignment.
 
Cheap trick: you can try removing the belt altogether, and "reversing" it, and then reinstalling and properly adjusting the tension.
(An old timer's trick that sometimes worked back in the pre-serpentine belt days)

Steve

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PS Pump belt. Catch 22?
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2008, 11:12:54 AM »

small blocks are nutorious for that with the Saginaw pump.  It comes from over tightening
 
I just saw this
 
 
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Matt Aker

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PS Pump belt. Catch 22?
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2008, 11:36:29 AM »

This thread brings back some baaad memories for me.  When my '89 Brougham needed a water pump (slight overheating issue when climbing hills) I took it to a trusted garage owned by Siss' cousin.
 
When the werk commenced a Vo-Tech intern was allowed to do the disassebly on the car.  (on a 307 of this vintage EVERY belt driven component has to be removed to swap the water pump, right Ron?)  The Vo-Tech MORON lost virtually every fastener and spacer in the process and gave up on the poor car.  *SIGH*......
 
Upon this discovery I addressed the issue with Siss' cousin who said that HE would button everything up and not to worry.  Shortly after we picked the car up every (four) belt started to squeal like a stuck hog!  (The lower radiator hose blew-off too, but I tightened the clamp fer im' )  I popped the hood when I got it home and was horrified!  The alternator was so far askew that it was rubbing the PS pump pulley!  (seven washers acting as shims brought that one back into line, I found the PS pump to be loose too)
 
Long story short, I spent countless hours trying to put this mess right.  It wasn't long after this the intake gasket popped and almost instantly a rod knock followed.  Siss' cousin felt bad (LOL) and reimbursed the amount of the repair bill, but the car was sold for parts this spring at a tidy financial loss.  We had enough, plus the car would have never been the virgin it was when we bought it a year prior.
 
Would I own another 307 powered Brougham?  Yes!  I just wouldn't take it to Siss' cousin Don for anything
 
 
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attkrlufy

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PS Pump belt. Catch 22?
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2008, 02:40:59 PM »

I don't think I've ever heard of "pulley alignment."  Everything I've ever heard of w/ pulleys deals with are they too close or too far from each other left-right (how tight the belt is).  So pulleys can become misaligned front-to-back, too (in relationship to the engine)?  How does this happen?  How would I even check for this?

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Matt Aker

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PS Pump belt. Catch 22?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2008, 02:55:44 PM »

How scientific should I get ?  Mostly it's visual with a keen eye.  Look at the belt and see if one side is wearing differently than the other.  If the front or back of the belt, (what rests in the pulleys), is worn worse than the other side you have an alignment issue.  Check for glazing or grooving or both.
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Matt Aker

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PS Pump belt. Catch 22?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2008, 02:57:54 PM »

It's easy to misalign components mounted to the front on an engine...  read my post about my Brougham again.
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Steve

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PS Pump belt. Catch 22?
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2008, 03:11:31 PM »

Maybe this will explain it easier
 
If the Power Steering pump is over tightened it bends the brackets
 
The two pullys should be perfectly straight and in line with each.  When the brackest bend, the power steering pully cocks so the two sheives are not exactly straight with each other
 
Lokk at these lines.  _  \\ .  The straight line is the engine and the cocked line is the pump.  Only not that dramatic.
 
That's waht you have to look for
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Matt Aker

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PS Pump belt. Catch 22?
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2008, 03:13:54 PM »

The belt will show you two.  Look for uneven wear on the sides.  (Why didn't I say that in the ferst place DUH... )
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chuck lowe

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PS Pump belt. Catch 22?
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2008, 02:52:07 AM »

pull the belt ---hand turn the pulleys for any tightness or resistance and clean the pulley grooves with a mild abrasive like scotch brite(very clean) and last make very certain you have the right size belts (width)-------------------over sized or undersized belts and pulleys will slip and in time crystalize and screach------why ?---because they wear in quicker and loosen up------why clean pulleys ?---if they slip over long periods of time the pulley surface will heat and become extreamely smooth = slip-----------later
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attkrlufy

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PS Pump belt. Catch 22?
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2008, 06:16:02 AM »

Alright, I checked under the hood, and I don't see any misalignment between the pump and the other pulleys.  The belt looks straight, the pulleys all seem to line up - and if they didn't they'd  bend the belt which isn't happening....I'm not sure what else to look for.

Perhaps it's the wrong belt?

Someone suggested I rough up the inside of the pulleys w/ steel wool.  He said if they're too smooth they'll cause the belt to slip.....which = squeal.

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Paul

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PS Pump belt. Catch 22?
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2008, 03:12:36 PM »

If you can turn the belt a 1/4 turn as if you are twisting it, you know it is tight enough.  If you can't turn it 1/4 turn, then it is too tight.  If you can get more than 1/4 turn, then it is too loose.  This is an old timers trick to belt tightness.  The new belts that are sold today, are not "wrapped" all around, and they are machine cut.  These belts will glaze over faster, and squeal.  I try to find the older type of cloth wrapped belts, and if you take proper care of them, they will outlast any modern day cut belt.   Most times that belts are out of alignment, it is a result of something being loose on the bracket hold down system.  I have rarely seen brackets that have been bent from a belt being too tight.  I have seen brackets that have been bent, because they were tensioned improperly using the wrong tool.  Also look for accident damage that has never been corrected. 
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Leaburn Patey

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PS Pump belt. Catch 22?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2008, 03:35:33 PM »

Having driven small block cars as beaters for years,they do not like el cheapo belts.
I had Dayco belts on my 318 and it squealed all the time.
Jammed a generic Canadian Tire "Torque Master" belt,same thing.
Ditto AC Delco belts.
The best that worked so far are the Goodyear Gatorback belts.
For some reason,they sit in the pulleys better,retain tension better and never squealled on me.
They are a different design and have a different rubber compund in them.

http://www2.goodyearbeltsandhose.com/cars/gatopoly.html
 
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attkrlufy

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PS Pump belt. Catch 22?
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2008, 05:15:23 AM »


Quote from: Junk
If you can turn the belt a 1/4 turn as if you are twisting it, you know it is tight enough.  If you can't turn it 1/4 turn, then it is too tight.  If you can get more than 1/4 turn, then it is too loose.  This is an old timers trick to belt tightness.

Thanks.  It good to know those kind of tricks.  I've always felt like I was guessing regarding proper belt tightness.


Quote from: CBarge
The best that worked so far are the Goodyear Gatorback belts.
For some reason,they sit in the pulleys better,retain tension better and never squealled on me.
They are a different design and have a different rubber compund in them.

Thanks, as well.  I'm going to look into picking up some of those.

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